Scientists react to republished Séralini GMO maize rat study

| June 24, 2014

Scientists around the world react as a controversial animal study on genetically modified (GM) corn and glyphosate-based herbicide that had been published and then retracted has been republished in expanded form in another academic journal.

The study, "Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize" by a group of French scientists led by Gilles-Eric Séralini, claims that a Monsanto herbicide-tolerant GM corn and RoundUp, Monsanto’s brand name for the herbicide, caused severe diseases and tumor growths in rats. It was republished today in the open-access journal Environmental Sciences Europe (SpringerOpen).

The study was originally published in Food and Chemical Toxicology (Elsevier) in September 2012. It met strong criticism from the scientific community almost immediately, with concerns ranging from the validity of the findings to the proper use of animals in the study. In November 2013, Food and Chemical Toxicology retracted the study.

In the previous publication, Séralini and colleagues faced immense pressure from the scientific community to release the raw data collected for the study. They did not do so then, but in the study's current republication and expanded revision, the raw data has been made available.

Here, the GLP posts a collection of the responses from scientists worldwide to the study and raw data release. We will post more reactions—critical and in support of the findings--as they become available.

David Spiegelhalter, Winton professor of the public understanding of risk at the University of Cambridge, said:

The article still does not appear to have had proper statistical refereeing, and the methods and reporting are obscure. The claimed effects show no dose-response, and so the conclusions rest entirely on a comparison with ten control rats of each sex. This is inadequate.

The study needs replicating by a truly independent laboratory using appropriate sample sizes. I agree with the authors that this whole area would benefit from greater transparency of data and improved experimental and statistical methods.

Joe N. Perry, quantitative ecologist and visiting professor of biometry at the University of Greenwich, said:

This paper appears to be based on the same data as Séralini's previous 2012 paper, with no real new information and only minor rephrasing and a few new references. Therefore, I doubt whether my conclusions would differ from those of the vast majority of independent members of the scientific community, who concluded in 2012 that there was insufficient evidence to justify the claims of CRIIGEN and Giles-Eric Séralini. However, I do welcome Séralini’s promise to publish his raw data and my hope is that all organisations involved in GM risk assessment will, wherever possible in the future, publish in full their raw data in the spirit of full transparency and openness.

Marcel Kuntz, biologist, director of research at Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique (CNRS, France) and professor at University of Grenoble-Alpes, said:

The authors reach essentially the same conclusions that were already refuted and they don’t take into account the fundamental criticisms addressed to them.

Looking specifically at the tumors:  The breed of rats used is subject to spontaneous tumor development. To identify a statistically reliable increase in tumors in a group of rats requires a large number of individuals. This re-publication is still deficient on this point.

These tumors were the most spectacular element of the media operation conducted by the authors. It should be noted that they showed photographs of three rats: a rat that used the GMO NK603, another that drank Roundup and a third absorbed both. Unlike the most basic scientific approach, no control rats (which didn’t eat GMO or drink herbicide) were shown. These control rats are still not shown in the re-publication.

Disclosure statement for Marcel Kuntz:

My only income comes from my employers mentioned above (and marginally the copyright of my books). I have no current contract with a private company, or as an individual, nor to my laboratory. My current scientific work is basic research, unrelated to the marketing of a variety of plant (GM or not). I don’t hold any patents, nor collect, nor received income as an inventor of a patent held by others. I do not identify any change in this situation in the foreseeable future.

Tom Sanders, professor of nutrition and dietetics at the King’s College London School of Medicine, said:

Republishing data that was faulty in the first place in study design and analysis does not provide redemption. Furthermore, it is now possible to publish almost anything in Open Access journals!

Séralini did not follow conventional methods for assessing animal toxicity and made most of the measurements at the end of life. When a very large number of measurements are made, statistically significant differences will occur play of chance.

The figures of an animal with a large tumour serve no scientific purpose. There are numerous omissions of probabilities which could lead the less critical reader to infer differences that are not statistically significant.

Bruce Chassy, professor emeritus of food safety and nutritional sciences from the Department of Food Science and Nutrition at the University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, said:

The original Séralini paper was rejected for many reasons. Perhaps the most important of these was that the design of the study and the described methods for data collection were fatally flawed in a number of ways. No amount of rewriting or excuses for faults can make the data whole again. When the data are faulty, the experiment must be repeated with proper design and methods.

Food and Chemical Toxicology and Elsevier have acted poorly throughout this affair. It is difficult for experts to understand why Food and Chemical Toxicology published the paper since it is exceedingly challenging to find an expert peer-reviewer who cannot find numerous flaws in the paper. The journal then consumed more than a year to retract the paper.

Among the several reasons for retraction that Food and Chemical Toxicology failed to cite was the unethical use of animals in experiments which the Committee on Publication Ethics states is a reason for retraction.

Séralini now states that the research was not a cancer study. If that is true, then there was no reason not to euthanize animals when tumors were first detectable. There was nothing to gain or learn. This is unethical treatment of animals.

Christopher Preston, lecturer in the School of Agriculture, Food and Wine at the University of Adelaide said:

The sample sizes are too small, and there are too many treatments and not enough controls. The wrong breed of rat is used. As it is prone to high numbers of tumours, there is going to be a lot of noise and not enough statistical power. There is no dose response, i.e. they were just measuring noise. There are ethical issues with the treatment of the rats.

My guess at why Séralini has pulled out of the (EU) repeat is because other scientists want to do the trial correctly. Séralini knows he can find something to spin if it is done his way because the likelihood of one of the 9 treatments being different to the control is quite high.

Wayne Parrot, professor of crop science at the University of Georgia Institute of Plant Breeding, Genetics & Genomics, and Department of Crop & Soil Sciences, said:

Séralini to this day fails to say what about modification would cause cancer. It is as if a magical carcinogenic aura was imposed on the GMO. Looking at rat studies with a real carcinogen (Aristolochia herbs), the onset of tumors in a dose-dependent matter is rapid, and reaches 100% by 16 weeks. Séralini is not even in the ballpark.

Andrew Bartholomaeus, adjunct professor of toxicology and pharmacy at the School of Pharmacy, University of Canberra, and Therapeutic Research Unit, School of Medicine, University of Queensland said:

This paper is largely a re-publication of the original article published and subsequently retracted by Food & Chemical Toxicology due to concerns around the scientific quality of the study and its interpretation, with some amendments that qualitatively address some of the criticisms of the original.

The science of the original publication was carefully assessed by food regulatory agencies, including the European Food Safety Agency (EFSA) and Food Standards Australia NZ (FSANZ). EFSA concluded that the design analysis and reporting is of insufficient scientific quality to be relevant in the safety assessment process.

The damming criticisms of the European Society of Toxicologic Pathology (ESTP), the peak body for experts in the diagnosis and interpretation of animal pathology findings, remain most relevant. ESTP concluded that the interpretation of findings included such basic errors that they would "be considered as a disqualifying mistake at an examination for pathologists" and stated they were "shocked by the whole body photographs of animals bearing very large tumors... which should have been euthanized....much the authors only illustrate that Sprague Dawley rats develop mammary tumors..(which are) common background lesions" in this strain of animal.

From a toxicological or food safety perspective the conclusions ANZ and international food regulatory agencies and peak scientific bodies suggest that the paper has insufficient scientific merit even to be considered controversial or provocative and will likely to be essentially irrelevant to the mainstream scientific community. None of the changes alter these fundamental criticisms.

In short the paper is likely to raise little more than a yawn amongst the mainstream toxicology and food regulatory communities. As an exercise in media management however the republication and associated commentary and media management such as the embargoes and limited access, reflects a masterful flair for publicity generation.

Unfortunately such studies, and the associated publicity, may lead to more serious public health consequences than those purported to be found in the studies themselves, as illustrated by the vandalism of field trials of Golden Rice in the Philippines, a crop being developed to alleviate the chronic disease and premature death of some of the worlds most desperate and disadvantaged children, suffering chronic vitamin A deficiency.

Declaration of interests for Andrew Bartholomaeus:

I have no direct financial interest in commercial biotechnology activities, either currently or at any time in the past. Before retiring I was the Branch head for the Risk assessment Branch of FSANZ, and prior to that the chief toxicologist for the prescription medicines branch of the TGA. I currently consult, primarily to Government, on science policy and practice in regulation and perform human health risk assessments for various areas of government.  I have also collaborated with ILSI (free of charge) to deliver workshops on biotechnology risk assessment for regulators around the world and to publish papers on this topic.

Ian Musgrave, senior lecturer in the Faculty of Medicine, School of Medicine Sciences, within the Discipline of Pharmacology at the University of Adelaide, said:

A French research study that claimed that rats fed a diet which contained a Roundup-tolerant genetically modified maize died more frequently and earlier over the two year study than control groups was retracted last year after widespread criticism of its methodology and interpretation. It has now been republished. However, the major flaws in this study still remain.

1)      The wrong controls were used - there should have been a non-GMO control for each level of GMO corn (i.e. there should have been an 11 per cent control for the 11 per cent GMO corn, a 22 per cent control for the 22 per cent GMO corn and 33 per cent standard corn for the 33 per cent GMO corn. As energy content, carbohydrate load and other components of the corn may affect tumour formation, this is a fundamental flaw which invalidates any conclusions.

2)      There is no dose response. For a substance to be an attributable cause of cancer, being exposed to more of the substance should result in more cases of cancer this just does not happen in this study.

3)      Furthermore, there is no consistent response to any of the measured outcomes that would even hint at a real adverse effect. The GMO corn had no effect on the number of tumours - Roundup even decreased the number of tumours in male rats, as did the combination of roundup and GMO corn in male rats (there was no consistent effect in female rats). High levels of GMO corn and high levels of roundup both reduced spontaneous mortality and pushed back the onset of death in male rats.

This shows that all we are seeing in these results is due to random variation in a poorly controlled experiment. It does not show that GMO corn, or roundup, even at concentrations that no human would ever be exposed to through diet, have no effect on cancer or mortality.

Thomas Lumley, professor from the Department of Statistics, University of Auckland, said:

I do not think the republication of the Séralini paper and the responses to critics answer any of the statistical concerns I had with the original paper. The main point of the response over sample size is to argue that some standard toxicological studies also use small sample sizes, which may be true but would not be relevant.

 Although I do not find it convincing, I am pleased that the study is being republished. While I think it would have been reasonable to reject the paper initially, I was uncomfortable with a retraction that was not based on any new information or any accusation of wrongdoing, and said so at the time.

Since the responses to critics claim that much of the opposition is a smear campaign by people funded by Monsanto and the GM crop industry, I think it is appropriate to point out that I have never received funding from Monsanto or any company involved in GM crop technology.

Robert Wager, technician and faculty member in the Biology Department at Vancouver Island University, said:

There are two main issues with the data I think need explanation by Séralini. First, the basic rule of toxicology is the dose makes the poison. Everything can be toxic if the dose is high enough. Therefore all proper toxicology studies show dose response curves (the higher the dose, the greater the effect). None of the data in the Séralini paper show dose response curves.

The second point and probably more important point is the use of inappropriate strain of rats. Sprague-Dawley is a strain of rat that spontaneously generates tumors. For this reason they are extensively used in cancer research. One of the main criticisms of the original 2012 paper was the omission of the control rat data and photos. The re-release again does not show the control rats.

It is very clear that review of the science literature show the conclusions of Séralini et al. are not supported by the vast majority of publications in this area.

Disclosure statement for Robert Wager

I have no financial connection with any biotech company. I have never received any personal pay from any biotech company, nor does my institute receive/administer and grants from biotech companies. I have serious difference of opinion on GMO's with Séralini et al. but have no connection to him or his institute. I am an academic who hates the impact pseudo-science is having on public policy and that is my only motivation.

Alan McHughen, plant biotechnologist and geneticist at the College of Natural and Agricultural Sciences, University of California, Riverside, said:

The number of rats used was too small to detect a meaningful difference in treatments. In this ‘new’ study, the number of rats remains the same, too small to yield meaningful results. To illustrate for those not familiar, it’s as if Séralini tossed a coin two times, and the coin came up ‘heads’ both times. With this result, Séralini is trying to convince us that he has a magic coin that only comes up ‘heads’.

The strain of rats used (Sprague-Dawley) was inappropriate for this type of two-year long study, as these rats have a natural predisposition to form tumors, regardless of the treatment. Séralini has not and can not justify this fatal error in experimental design

Séralini now asserts that he follows all European ethical guidelines for animal care. But he still shows rats with massive tumors, and the European ethical standards requires rats be euthanized when tumors reach 4 mm diameter. Clearly the rats in the photos have tumors larger than 4 mm, about the size of a small pea.

There’s no dose response. In toxicity or carcinogenicity studies, increasing the dose of an actual toxin or carcinogen leads to greater effect. But Séralini’s data do not show such dose effects, and Séralini still does not properly explain why.

In short, the ‘new’ paper will have the same impact as the original, retracted paper, because the original data were useless, and there is no new data. The methodology was faulty then, and, as there is no new methodology, it remains faulty now.

When the results of an experiment fail to reflect what we observe in the real world, the scientist knows the experimental design or interpretation must be wrong and tries to correct it. But Séralini insists his experiments and interpretations are fine; it’s reality that’s wrong.

Disclosure statement for Alan McHughen:

I am happy to advise that I am a public sector academic scientist serving the public interest, and as such, my research program is funded entirely from public sources; I do not accept private funds. As a result, I have no research connection to either Mr Séralini (or his coauthors), or CRIIGEN, or Monsanto.

Cami Ryan, professional affiliate with the Department of Bioresource Policy, Business and Economics at the College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan, said:

First, and most importantly, this is the same poorly designed scientific study that has been widely discredited by health and food safety agencies all over the world when it was published in 2012 (and subsequently retracted in 2013) by Food and Chemical Toxicology. Sample sizes and controls are still a problem (there are well-articulated OECD guidelines on this) and there are several holes in terms of interpretation of data.

If Séralini’s goal here was the pursuit of good, quality science, he would have accepted the original retraction, paid mind to the broader criticisms that he received from subject-matter scientific experts and organizations and executed a new study (using an appropriate methodology) before attempting to publish again. Quality science is published in quality journals. If Séralini was really onto something here, it most certainly would have been taken up by more reputable academic journals such as Nature or Science.

Disclosure statement from Cami Ryan:

My current work is funded through various entities including not-for-profit grower groups and organizations as well as Genome Canada's Genome Prairie/GELS program. No conflict.

Peter Dearden, associate professor and director of Genetics Otago, Laboratory for Evolution and Development at the University of Otago, said:

The republication of the Séralini study raises a number of important issues to do with the scientific process. It must be noted that the paper being published is identical to the first one, which was initially attacked on methodological bases.

The paper is being republished because the authors feel it was unfairly retracted from Food and Chemical Toxicology. I think that the problem here is the controversial nature of the original paper.

This was a publication that gave some interesting results, but that needed to be replicated with larger numbers of rats in the experiment and, perhaps, a more statistically robust analysis. The paper was, in my mind, inconclusive, but pointed a direction in which future research could go.

After much public discussion the paper was withdrawn by the journal against the wishes of the authors. This is unusual. Even more unusual is the notice of retraction that states that the study was inconclusive, but there was no flaw or fraud in the original paper. Inconclusive data is no reason to retract a peer-reviewed and published paper.

The republication of this paper, and the rebuttals presented, have not changed my opinion. I am not convinced that the original paper indicates any danger of genetically modified food. I do think, however, that this research needs to be continued.

I am also convinced that retracting the original paper in this unusual way has not served the scientific process well. All good science is a debate, and one that should be held publically in published journals. Only through open publication, replication and exchange of scientific data can we use science effectively.

Controversial studies should not be buried because of public argument. They should be investigated, repeated, and new data published to either disprove or support the original findings. Only then do we get a clear and robust argument.

Jack Heinemann, professor of molecular biology and genetics at the University of Canterbury New Zealand, said:

The first publication of these results revealed some of the viciousness that can be unleashed on researchers presenting uncomfortable findings. I applaud Environmental Sciences Europe for submitting the work to yet another round of rigorous blind peer review and then bravely standing by the process and the recommendations of its reviewers, especially after witnessing the events surrounding the first publication.

This study has arguably prevailed through the most comprehensive and independent review process to which any scientific study on GMOs has ever been subjected.

The work provides important new knowledge that must be taken into account by the community that evaluates and reports upon the risks of genetically modified organisms, indeed upon all sources of pesticide in our food and feed chains. In time these findings must be verified by repetition or challenged by superior experimentation. In my view, nothing constructive for risk assessment or promotion of GM biotechnology has been achieved by attempting to expunge these data from the public record.

Michael Antoniou, head of nuclear biology group at King's College London, said:

Few studies would survive such intensive scrutiny by fellow scientists. The republication of the study after three expert reviews is a testament to its rigour, as well as to the integrity of the researchers.

If anyone still doubts the quality of this study, they should simply read the republished paper. The science speaks for itself.

If even then they refuse to accept the results, they should launch their own research study on these two toxic products that have now been in the human food and animal feed chain for many years.

Responses collected through the Science Media Centre and Sustainable Pulse.

  • The real questions are:
    Why would Springer let one of it’s journals publish a retracted article? Is it their standard practice to pick up work discarded by others?

    What rationale did the reviewers/editor have for ignoring the widespread criticisms of the original paper? None of these criticisms were addressed in the republished article. Was the work really reviewed?

    Where is the real raw data? The tumor data provided is summarized to the group (treatment) level only with no information on individual rats or their respective cage assignments. This information is critical to proper analysis of the results.

    • Claire Lutyens

      The rats were 2 to a cage. If you read the paper you might have discovered this. There is also a link to the raw data. So if you read the paper you might actually see that a valuable point is raised. GE corn sprayed with RoundUp, if eaten regularly causes even at the lowest doses long term deleterious health effects. It is the first and only paper to study this corn event over the lifetime of any organism, so to disprove these findings a replicable study needs to be conducted.Where are the diagnostic tools for humans to see if consumption of GE foods cause harm? There are none so until humans are able to test for illness that might be related to the consumption of GE foods we have to rely on these studies.,

      • Thomas Borreson

        Actually, the experimental design which Seralini used prevents the experiment from demonstrating that GE corn caused cancer. It’s entirely useless for determining that due to the types of rats used, the length of the experiment, and issues with controls.

        Even under these shoddy conditions of small samples and using Sprague-Dawley rats to a span where large numbers of tumors are to be expected, there is a conspicuous lack of anything which could be confused for a dose response.

        If you read the paper with a scientifically literate eye, you would realise this.

        • JuHoansi

          The dose response is in Figure 6. Instead of mouthing off about something you obviously know nothing about, try actually reading the paper. The paper is a toxicity study not a carcinogenic study. Tumors appeared, and Seralini reported them, as is required in OECD guidelines. Seralini’s paper is essentially a replication of Monsanto’s feeding study in FCT from 2004, only longer term.
          Funny how biotech scientists didn’t have any problems with that study using the same rats.

          • Fullerene

            Ju, with rats that are genetically “programmed” to develop tumors, regardless of their environment or food?

            Look again at the dose response. It doesn’t show what you think it does.

          • JuHoansi

            Yes, the same rats that are used throughout nearly all feeding trials. According to OECD guidelines SD rats are supposed to be used. You can’t even follow a discussion.

            I was responding to the above poster who claimed there was no dose response chart. What do you think the does response shows?

      • Claire, I have read both papers quite carefully and am fully aware that there were two rats per cage (one of each sex). As a practicing statistician in agricultural research for 3+ decades, I have a very critical eye towards data. The data reported for tumors and mortality are clearly not raw data, but rather a summarized version grouped by treatment. In order to build an appropriate statistical model that can test the proposed hypotheses, the raw data format (rat by rat) is required.

        The data is lacking in other aspects as well. For example, they state that rats were palpated for tumor assessment twice a week, however, the data is apparently showing daily values (there is no clear indication of what time is in the data files). Where then, does this extra data come from? They also state that biometric data was recorded at several time points, yet they only show one time point (15 M). Why? What is special about 15 months? Seralini, et al are clearly just letting us see what they want us to see. This, unfortunately, has been their standard MO for some time.

        There is ample evidence these events have no health consequences. The corn products in question are primarily used in animal feeds and have been used as such for many, many years. There is no evidence in the wide array of animal species consuming these feeds of the health effects (or any effects for that matter) claimed by Seralini. Note that these animals also include 100’s of 1000’s of laboratory animals which are produced and used under highly monitored and controlled conditions around the globe in a wide spectrum of research areas. Never has there been any indication that these highly monitored, widely used animals have showed deleterious, unexpected or unexplained health effects. Such health effects are simply not present, nor is there any plausible known mechanism for them to occur. The health concerns here have long ago been put to rest.

        • R. Smiley

          I hate to rain on your parade, but having attended government sponsored hearings where industry swore on a proverbial stack of bibles that there was no problem with what they were doing only for them to be caught out in an out and out lie, I can tell you that there are many ways to spin data in order to avoid unpleasant conclusions.

          My first hand example concerns a large industrial concern defending their dumping of effluent: they stated that “we kept fish in the river water downstream from out outfall for six days and nothing happened to them”. At which point a friend asked “And what happened on the seventh day?” Silence… and then “they all died”. As you can see, there was no actual contradiction, they just cut off the data points on the day before total mortality. Had they been allowed to publish their “research findings” all would have been consistent and peer reviewed… yet would have ultimately been incorrect as to the toxicity of the effluent.

          Monsanto is famous for having short term studies, and (pardon the pun) I smell a rat.

          • Smiley , you seem extremely intelligent , however debating with these morons, yea I said it, is a waste of time. It’s this simple , eating a plant designed to kill the very insect that is eating it to stay alive is not something I am going to voluntary ingest. The fact they are refusing to label it and secretly adding into the masses food chain is good enough for me. Let them research away as they are dying from it how ever many years. It takes

        • LongJohnCoppers

          Claire stopping being a wanna be know it all when you belong in the kitchen, and Mr. Pdiff I like the points your making but none of this matters.

  • Eric

    I fully agree with Michael Antoniou. I think that everyone should *READ* this paper. The science does in fact “speak for itself!” Since you read it, understood it, and fully stand by the science in this paper, Mr. Antoniou, I would like you to inform me as to when you have some free time to meet me for Happy Hour at a pub of your choosing. You see, I would like to buy you a pint of RoundUp herbicide so that you may drink to your health, since that is in fact, the only correlative data this paper illustrates.

    No really, I’m not even joking. The data shows that if you’re male (techinically a male Sprauge-Dawley rat), and you drink RoundUp, you’ll live longer. Don’t take my word for it though. Look up the article “Drinking Roundup Herbicide Makes Men Live Longer” and “Bad Science in the paper ‘Long term toxicity of a Roundup herbicide and a Roundup tolerant GM maize'” by Myles Power (I originally linked them here, but it got me marked as spam).

    I await Mr. Antoniou to join me for a round of RoundUp, and that offer is on the table for any (men only, sorry ladies!) who support the data in this paper.

    P.S. Don’t drink herbicide! ;)

    • Claire Lutyens

      I would like to ask if Eric would be a human subject offering your services as a raging RoundUp-a-holic for a long term generational study on the regular consumption of GE foods sprayed with RoundUp? Now we need 50 more people for the next 15 years for a human study, anyone joining?

      • That ‘study’ has been done. We’ve been eating roundup ready crops in the US going on 18 years… 7 trillion meals…and not so much as a sniffle linked in the scientific literature to GMOs or glyphosate. No Cancer rates have been sinking since GMOs took off in the early 2000s, especially stomach cancers. No incidences of increased illnesses or mortality in farm animals around the world, who are largely fed GMO grains. In sum, the research literature and empirical/practical data coincide. That’s why every major science and food oversight agency in the world—every one–has endorsed the safety and health of GMO foods, in fact often calling GMO foods healthier and more sustainable than organic and other conventional foods because of they are evaluated so critically during and after the approval process.

        • Eric

          What Clair also fails to realize (like most scientifically illiterate people), is that dosage matters. The amount of RoundUp (or any pesticide) that is sprayed is regulated by Federal Agencies to safe human consumption levels, and honestly, that doesn’t even consider that most people wash/rinse off their fruits and vegetables before eating them anyway.

          Also, it’s pretty well known that organic farming uses natural pesticides, many with higher toxicity ratings than synthetic pesticides (like RoundUp), and as such they are stricter regulations (on cutoff levels) on them. Natural doesn’t necessarily mean “safer” or “better.” Again, dosage matters.

          RoundUp is actually one of the safest pesticides on the market, hence the reason why it’s so popular. It has nothing to do with “shadow conspiracies” of Monsanto trying to rule the world by controlling our food, lol. It’s simply what works best for most farmers at the moment, and what has been deemed safest for human consumption (at the moment). Also, GM Biotechnology in many cases can enable farmers to spray even less pesticides, so how is that a bad thing?

          Honestly, I wonder how anti-GMOers feel about bananas. Why aren’t they protesting against them? After all the banana we’ve grown accustomed to eating today is a seedless triploid, an asexual clone bred through banana tree “pup.” Human cultivation alone is the only reason bananas have survived until today, without natural sexual propagation. Wild (“natural”) bananas do reproduce sexually, and are quite different than the cultivated fruit we eat today. They are small, dry, loaded with inedible seeds and have hard flesh. The soft yellow flesh we are used to today is the result of collective mutations cultivated thousands of years ago. This selection makes them completely sterile, and they are unable to survive in a wild “natural” state.

          I think every time an anti-GMO activist says that we should stop “messing around with nature” when it comes to agriculture, they should be asked if they would like to eat a wild banana.

          • R. Smiley

            Eric, I’m not sure what you think you know about bananas… or anything else, for that matter. While the Cavendish banana is indeed a sterile triploid, wild type (seed producing) bananas have traditionally been and will continue to be eaten by residents of tropical climes: the seeds only develop if you allow the fruit to ripen on the tree – just as commercial bananas don’t do well if you allow them to ripen on the tree: they are picked green in accordance to when the bunch started to develop. Otherwise, they go soft and fall off. (In the Philippines, for example, it was the custom to bury bananas of the seed producing types in rice – bags kept in the home – in order to ripen them.)

            To compare traditional plant breeding with shotgun gene insertion techniques in the way you have is called the ‘straw man’ argument, and is meaningless.

            In short, your remarks about bananas are not germane to the discussion and only indicate that you really don’t know that much about what happens in a research institute. Having seen full professors frantic about whether or not their grant is going to be renewed moving heaven and earth to write the article… which was subsequently published… saying something good about the product they have been testing (after the faculty statistician gave the thumbs down on years of data) I can assure you that it comes as cold comfort to say that the very organizations tasked with ensuring that our food is safe have o.k.’d the product – especially when it turns out that there is a revolving door for senior employees between them and Monsanto.

            I myself… and between two and ten percent of a test population encompassing a community of 1500 souls I had occasion to eat at the same kitchen with… suffer from explosive intestinal distress after eating food cooked with GMO sourced cooking oil. The symptoms disappeared once I realized that it had to be the oil and stopped eating anything soaked in it – institutional food tends to go heavy on cheap oil – and informed the neighbours as well (who had, judging from the cessation of noises emanating from their wc downstairs, heard through a cement and terrazzo floor had similar relief – and the word spread like wildfire, to the point that after three weeks I heard people saying … “Well… I guess some people are sensitive to it…”) yet I never found peer reviewed literature in restricted journals which dealt with these problems and have not heard of government restrictions on use or consumption.

            In order for us to say that dosage matters we’d have to see more research. It might not, and I have seen cases when an increase over a certain level did NOT bring about an increased response. You don’t know what you are talking about, nor apparently do some of the professors noted above; either that or they are lying.

            Springer is one of the better publishing houses, and I would feel better if Monsanto did not demand of anyone buying their product not to use it for research purposes….

          • Eric Bjerregaard

            You accuse others of lying after coming up with that cockamamie story about you, your neighbors and the cooking oil? Re bananas I made some observations about the bananas I grow and never mentioned Cavendish. In another conversation. So your Cavendish comment is irrelevant. Further why would someone grow wild bananas from seed and thus delay yield without gaining any improvement in nutrition or yield when that person could simply start a new mat by dividing corms?

          • R. Smiley

            Right, Eric. Who am I going to believe? You or my own lying eyes? I probably wouldn’t have twigged to the oil without my downstairs neighbour having the same problem at two in the morning as I did (not really sweet music, but it was a duet at times) plus the fact that I spent time away from the kitchen in question and after a couple of weeks noticed that I had no more attacks. They returned when I consumed food cooked in the oil… and that was nothing compared to what used to happen during night marches in the army: I was radio man, meaning that I was at the head of the column, and the gas rolled out of me in clouds: there were literally cries of protest from those following me up. (They used to fry eggs – and everything else – in about an inch of oil… and you ate anything and everything you could get because there was never enough food)

            Your problem is a personal one, and I sympathize with you: You are emotionally attached to your opinion which is that GM plants are identical to non-GMOs without having either education or facts to support it. I happen to have personal experience to the contrary, have heard of others who had a similar experience to me, and agree with Dr. Suzuki, who by chance was my genetics prof at UBC.

            Re bananas. You were talking about the Cavendish banana even if you don’t know it. The yellow banana we all buy in the stores is the Cavendish. Its a triploid. It doesn’t produce seeds. Bananas reproduce both vegetatively (corms) and in most non-commercial cases by seeds, and the dipoid and tetraploids are capable of producing seeds, but like apples or any other fruit, when you get a good variety, you propagate it vegetatively. ( If that isn’t too difficult for you to understand) its just that Chiquita Banana doesn’t sell them. Their banana isn’t really very good, but it is uniform and big and pretty (even the Gros Michel was better tasting), and that is what is sold in the market. Here is a link if you are actually interested;
            My father had many happy experiences with Lacatan bananas during the
            war, and I studied subtropical horticulture both as an undergrad and postgrad; now if that isn’t good enough for you, I’m really sorry. Are you also a Global warming denier?

        • Rickinreallife

          It is also interesting to me that feed conversion ratios contine to climb in hogs and cattle even as ge corn and soy make up the majority of grains in livestock diets, again another indicator that Seralinis purported findings are not consistent with real world –there is no there. If Seralini’s and Carmen’s studies were an actual detection of real world phenomenon, it would have long ago shown up in feeding statistics. If we need powerful, selfish murkily conspiratoral commercial interests, consider that meat packers amd meat producers have as much or more economic muscle and political clout than Monsanto, yet somehow these interest have tolerated biotech companies supplying them with defective products. If Seralini and Carmen are correct,it should have been readily apparent long ago as the bottom line for producer amd meat packers would be adversely affected by widespread physiological effects that would decrease feed efficiency, increasing medical costs, and reduced reproductive success. In fact, the data suggests quite the opposite.

          • R. Smiley

            Rick, Interesting it may be, but connected it ain’t. How come there are so many scientific illiterates trying to pass themselves off as arbiters of scientific literature? You might wish to read up on the use of anti-biotics to increase weight gain or microbiomes. What research institute did you (NOT) do your post grad work at?

            Commercial interests do not necessarily coincide with health or benefit. In fact, the yield figures I have read (in peer reviewed literature and closed journals) indicate that GMOs have LOWER yields… yet in many countries they are widespread, and in others they are not.

          • rick

            R. Smiley — “How come there are so many scientific illiterates trying to pass themselves off as arbiters of scientific literature? . . . What research institute did you (NOT) do your post grad work at?”
            It is not my intention to represent myself as a research scientist. You are correct, I do not have any academic or career credentials in relevant fields of study. While I have never claimed different, and didn’t above, I apologize to you or anyone offended by my tenor who found it arrogant or dismissive, or adopting a false air of authority.
            However, I was not aware that laypersons were precluded from commenting, and I still believe the point I was raising is a legitimate one. Apart from the quality of the Seralini study itself, (I.e. the study design, data collection and analysis, and interpretation) legitimate criticisms raised by others in the scientific community such as those quoted above, there are other reasons why I do not believe it to be unreasonable whether a fellow research scientist or a layperson like myself, to be skeptical about basing my personal choices or public policy on the claims made by this study or Judy Carmen’s hog study in particular. These would be reasonable criteria for laypersons to apply to the findings of any research project in any field, and especially those that make fairly sensational claims . One of these is whether the purported evidence and findings, if true, correspond with real world observations.
            Both Carmen and Seralini purport to have demonstrated that the process of ge somehow instills toxic and carcinogenic corruption to the feed products derived from crops that include a portion of their genetic endowment derived from biotech applications to seed genetics. If the works by these researchers had indeed discovered a heretofore undiscovered phenomenon with severe health implications for livestock consuming the products, there would likely be confirmation in other measurements of productivity, such as trends in feed conversion efficiency, reproductive success, etc. (will expand on that in a second reply). Data I am aware of does not indicate that longterm trends in increasing feed conversion efficiency have been affected by the entry and dominance of feedstuffs derived from ge crops.

          • rick

            R. Smiley said “Interesting it may be, but connected it ain’t.”

            I respectfully disagree. Feed conversion efficiency or feed conversion ratio (FCR)
            [] is indirectly a measure of health. It is a function of the animal’s genetics and age, the quality of the feed, and the conditions in
            which the animal is kept.” .[Feed efficiency, i.e. the rate by which livestock convert feed to growth, typically reported as units of growth per unit of feed, or total amount of feed required for an animal starting at weight A to reach market end weight B, is a closely watched measurement both in macro and by individual producers.

            Why, because animals experiencing health problems (acute or chronic) have to
            devote a higher proportion of the nutrients and energy of their diets to deal with the health issue, or other environmental stresses like
            heat or cold (more energy required to keep cool or warm). Higher feed conversion ratios indicate animals are freer of disease or illness
            stresses and therefore are able to devote more of their feed to growth.

            Judy Carmen and Dr. Seralini both claim to have found evidence that ge feed ingredients somehow are playing havoc with internal organs and contributing to adverse health indicators. If true, we should be seeing this corroborated, both at the individual producer level and in aggregate statistics, in stagnant or declining feed conversion ratios and reproductive data, particularly in breeding herds that consume these feedproducts over a lifetime, since ge crops were introduced.

          • R. Smiley

            I won’t say that there is no logical basis for your arguments; I always did well in the genetics courses; it was all so beautifully logical. Fortunately I avoided that field as a career as I never really liked lab work. And then it turned out that we were quite simply wrong. Reality appears to be far more complicated than what we conceived.

            For example, the following link. (again, he may not be right either, but as you can see, there are levels and more levels of understanding, feedbacks, and lord knows what all.)


            Just because something is gaining weight doesn’t mean that it is “better off”. For example, extrapolating from the above, GMOs could be having a deleterious effect on gut bacteria (we know that, given the choice, animals won’t eat GMO foods) – or something far worse. As Dr Suzuki observed, we are engaged in a massive experiment.


          • rick

            “You might wish to read up on the use of anti-biotics to increase weight gain or microbiomes.”
            Yes, subtherapeutic use of antibiotics and antimicrobitics are utilized for growth promotion. But that only supports my understanding that feed conversion efficiency is a function of animal health. Yes, this is a very simplistic description, but anti-biotics have a growth promotion effect by protecting against viruses, pathogens etc that would cause the animal to utilize a higher proportion of its feed intake to body functions to fight off disease leaving less for growth.
            There are any number of other factors in addition to use of growth promotion medications that that have contributed to increases in feed efficiency, e.g. genetics, housing that insulates animals from environmental stresses of heat, cold, parasites, etc,. All of these work by reducing the amount of energy and nutrients from feed that are required and metabolized for maintenance and leaving more for growth.
            I am theorizing that these would be counteracted if the feed were somehow contaminated with toxins, attacking internal organs because of ge, animals would have to use more energy to stay well and feed conversion rates would fall. Also, anti biotics and anti microbials would not defend an animal against toxins that Seralini and Carmen suggest are in there although not identified.

          • Mlema

            This may be off topic, but antibiotics in food production are perhaps the biggest contributor to antibiotic resistant bacteria. This may cause a huge problem for human health at some point, if it isn’t already (ineffective antibiotics for human infections)

          • Derrick S.

            Not to mention certain antibiotics in steady doses causes damage to the kidneys. My mother is dealing with the problem currently. But you are correct in regard to the resilience to antibiotics.

          • rick

            “Commercial interests do not necessarily coincide with health or benefit”
            Thanks for the morality pointer, but animal health and commercial interests do often coincide. I am still doubtful that if something about ge made the grain toxic to animals, that it would not be apparent to producers and meat processors. And I am doubtful that commercial interests such as producers and meat packers would acquiesce to feed products that increased their costs of production by reducing feed efficiency or reduce reproductive success, or that result in packers having to reject more animals, increase recalls and reduce meat quality, due to health issues.
            That was my original point, if Seralini and Carmen are right that ge crops cause adverse animal health, that would impact powerful commercial interests. Again, do the claims of these studies correspond with the real world.

          • Mlema

            That’s a good point imo. Insect resistant and pesticide tolerant GMOs have improved production in some areas. But, for instance, in some places bt crops are a waste of money because they don’t really provide any increase in yield (the pests they protect against arent’ a problem there or there are other pests not affected by bt toxins). If you look at the federal approval list of GMOs, perhaps 95% are commodity crops engineered for pesticide tolerance or insect resistance. And now of course the pesticide tolerance is stacked for a number of pesticides more toxic than Roundup AND also with bt. These traits are for convenience of production. They’ve had some minimal environmental benefit, but there are many questions about the wisdom of this track. For instance, the effects on non-target insects over time, the resistance that requires more toxic pesticides, the wisdom of engineering bt into all these plants when it’s not a protein that people have consumed in this way ever before, and the fact that it makes bt as an applied pesticide more ineffective over time. We’re increased the presence of bt in the environment in a big way and we don’t really know what effect it will have. So, as far as meat production – I agree – there’s little evidence that GMOs affect the overall production of meat or “feed conversion” – however, feed conversion and litter size don’t reflect on the safety of humans consuming any current or future GMO as a whole food. And since it does appear that SOME gmos negatively affect the health of rats or mice in long-term or generational studies, I think it makes sense to be very cautious about how we proceed with this technology for human food. I also think that the current agricultural use of GMOs is unsustainable, just as earlier pesticide-driven industrial agriculture was. We’re not going to be able to escape the basic facts of food production: good soil, water and pest management. There are brilliant agricultural scientists and knowledgeable farmers in every climate who can best help us to utilize and conserve resources at the same time. We don’t really need companies like Monsanto sucking the taxpayers through federal subsidies for the crop seeds they patent. That money should be going to public development of traits (whether gmo or conventional) that will help us deal with current problems of production – not international trade profits)

          • There is no evidence that ANY GMOs pose deleterious health effects to humans–none. Bt is a natural pesticide that’s been shown not to be biologically active in humans, so has no human impact. Producing commodity crops is not a negative; they are used to feed animals, which is used to produce for humans. They are also used for many crops that humans consume. US food costs are the lowest in the world. That may not mean much to more affluent consumers but in the developing, cutting commodity food costs can improve the nutrition of millions of people and save lives. No country has introduced Bt crops where it’s not needed. It’s introduction in places like India have literally been a godsend, as it raised family incomes and protected against pesticide poisonings. That’s why its’ usage/adoption rate has gone from 0 to near 100% in less than a decade–it works.

          • Mlema

            The theory is that because there are no receptors in the human gut which would work the way they do in the insect gut to cause the proteins to rupture cells, that there’s no effect in the human. But the fact is, we’ve never eaten foods that contain these proteins throughout. They’ve only been incidentally ingested or breathed in. They’re now engineered into many many tons of plants – where they didn’t exist. And they’re increased in the soils. We just don’t know what the effects will be over time. We do know that they’ve reduced the effectiveness of bt sprays – which were used intermittently, had a lower rate of development of resistance, and washed off the plants they were applied to.

            “They are also used for many crops that humans consume.”

            We eat extracts like sugars and oils. We’re not actually eating GMOs as whole foods – in the form that may prove problematic due to changes in composition.

            You can’t overlay American agriculture onto the third world. And shipping feed crops to other countries isn’t a solution to global food security. In fact, I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you imply that GMOs will reduce food costs in developing countries.

            The whole debate about the benefit of bt cotton in India continues. It has only increased income in some cases. Income data is too complicated and the one study which shows a link is heavily contested. Not interested in getting into that.

            But no, there’s no evidence that GMOs are safe for humans to eat as whole foods. Perhaps some are or will be, but without tests to determine a greater equivalency than we currently have, there’s just no way to know. I’m not saying they’re unsafe, but SOME feeding studies, on SOME GMOs indicate reason for caution. I don’t know why you would oppose this, since every GMO is different, and since transgenics in some cases significantly change gene expression or secondary metabolism – why would you insist on putting forth the idea that ANY GMO is safe. I mean, that’s not exactly what you’re saying. You’re saying:
            “There is no evidence that ANY GMOs pose deleterious health effects to humans–none.”
            But that’s kinda meaningless when you consider that:
            1) we don’t test most of these crops for deleterious health effects to humans because we’re using them for fuel and meat production and extracts that would have little of the rest of the GMO present in them, (humans aren’t eating them as is – or, if they are we’re not testing what’s happening anyway), and 2) You can’t make an all-inclusive statement about GMOs. They’re all different. And new ones will be even more different because we’re stacking traits and trying to modify more complicated pathways

          • The inability of Bt to react in humans is not a “theory”; it’s a biological fact. You clearly have taken basic biology, for if you would you understand the 100% impossibility. The increased income from the use of Bt in India is overwhelming, and well documented, and is underscored by the increased demand for Bt crops. You may not want to get into but it’s fact. The statement you made about new GMOs possibly having a health effect apply even more so to the 3000 crops created through mutagenesis and the new crops created every week through conventional mutation breeding. Any new combination of proteins can have unusual impacts. The difference between ones created through genetic engineering is that they are actually tested and are therefore safer. Foods with GMOs are actually safer than conventional or organics because of that (though foods of any rarely pose a health hazard because of the flexibility and resilience of the human digestive system. Do yourself a favor and take some basic courses in genetics and biology, and farming. It’s clear you do not have a background knowledge in these areas, or you would not be posting the things you do. Good luck in your attempt to demonize GMOs.

          • Mlema

            OK, well thanks for your advise but it seems inappropriate. You seem to be mixing several issues together which is difficult to address. I simply think it’s unwise to approach this technology as if it’s a monolithic and homogeneous thing. There are certain corporations which are endangering the benefit that the technology can provide by applying it unwisely for the sake of profits. They endanger the benefits because the public doesn’t like it and may end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That would be bad. But these claims about thousands of safety studies and no evidence of harm, where no evidence exists, are only feeding the distrust of the public.

          • biff41035

            Once again what happens to the peptide bonds that hold proteins together in a highly acidic environment like the stomach? As soon as you answer that question you will then realize how silly it is to say we don’t know if the bt protein has an effect on humans that eat it.

          • Mlema

            Unique receptors aren’t the only way that proteins can effect the organism. These are proteins that don’t form a large part of the human diet. However, if we engineer eggplant to produce bacterial proteins, we could find that people become sensitized to these proteins. Bt brinjal was shown to have inflammatory effects in rats during deregulation studies in India, but this has been completely ignored.

          • biff41035

            We are not rats. Sensitivity reactions occur because of a number of things. You want to outlaw peanuts shellfish? Not to mention that the GE papaya has been eaten in Hawaii for over a decade now.

          • Mlema

            GE papaya has NOTHING in common with bt eggplant – unless being able to call them both GMOs is something you consider relevant. They are developed entirely differently, and the papaya doesn’t contain bacterial toxins (bt). Asking if we should outlaw peanuts and shellfish is also a ridiculous implication. In bt crops we are adding proteins that humans haven’t ingested in great quantities. We don’t know that humans aren’t sensitive to these proteins. In feeding studies (which is the only way we have to learn whether or not humans might be negatively impacted by eating these new foods) – various changes in blood and other tissues were observed. This indicates that more research is needed before people are expected to eat these foods on a regular basis. Also, this kind of engineering can alter the structure and metabolism of the plant/food. So without more detailed analysis, we dont’ really know if this food is “substantially equivalent”

          • biff41035

            I’m sorry that mainstream science doesn’t agree with your anti gmo views. How about instead of talking about the truncated by protein that is found in these foods that doesn’t cause sensitivity reactions in humans. You start long term population study that shows the bt protein to cause sensitivity reactions in humans? Do something other than saying what if on a message board.

          • Mlema

            If we label bt products that humans will be ingesting wholly, like bt sweet corn or bt eggplant, we will have a better idea over time whether or not their might be negative consequences of eating Cry toxins as part of our diet. Otherwise, people like you can make all sorts of unscientific claims about safety – as you’re doing.

          • biff41035

            You are the one making claims up out of thin air. There will be no labeling. I swear this is exactly like arguing with people that believe global climate change is a scam. Produce evidence that bt protein causes the production of IgE or stop. I’m done with you too. I t s very obvious that you are a paid organic tool.

          • Mlema

            I didn’t used to care about labeling one way or the other. But now that I see foods like bt brinjal being forced into production while every feeding trial that was done with it produced concerning results that should have triggered further evaluation, I can’t help but feel that it will be important to label such food in case people start developing symptoms – so there will be a way to trace the cause.

            ” Produce evidence that bt protein causes the production of IgE or stop”

            How do you propose that I do that? And remember, every bt crop is different. It seems you’ve bought into the idea that creating a GMO is like sewing: you make a little snip in the dna, and then stitch in your new genes, and then everything goes on as normal except you have a new product in the cell. This is how the industry likes to portray the technology for rubes.

          • Mlema

            Oh, and I don’t receive any money from anybody for anything I say or do outside my job, which is science and medical illustration. I’ve don’t and never had received any money for anything from the organic or any other industry except publishing companies and educational institutions. you’re the first person who’s ever called me a shill, and I’m not sure what to think about that. Some say it’s a compliment, others say it’s about the frustration of the commenter. Either way, it’s untrue,

          • Mlema

            Also, bt brinjal in Bangledesh was supposed to be labelled in the marketplace for just this reason, but there’s been no enforcement. So once again, any chronic problems are likely to be chalked up to causes other than the brinjal.

          • biff41035

            All of what you said is garbage. Bt protein doesn’t effect humans. Get over it.

          • Mlema

            biff, you ought to be able to provide the research that shows that bt eggplant is safe for humans to eat – like even one example of a feeding trials on mice or rats. Can you do it? You (and the industry) are claiming these new foods are safe to eat. Since you’re the one making that claim, you’re the one that should provide some evidence. Instead you’re working off the theory that since the trait (bt) has no receptors in the human gut, the engineered food is safe. This shows a misunderstanding of the technology: that all the engineering does is precisely add genes that cause the plant to manufacture the Cry toxin.

            So, if that’s your claim – where’s the evidence?

          • Mlema

            Well, I made a reply here. But as has happened on this site before, it was deleted for no apparent reason, without even a notation of deletion. This site is bogus.

          • Peter Olins

            Are you proposing that all farmers’ markets be required to have little stickers on each ear of corn or eggplant, describing their genetic background?

            Since there are 40 million cases of food poisoning a year in the U.S.—a real, not hypothetical problem—would you support compulsory microbiological testing of individual food items, too?

          • Mlema

            I’m not proposing anything – I’m referring to the fact that bt brinjal in Bangledesh was supposed to be labeled as such when sold at market. This was in order to track any health problems. It apparently isn’t being labeled. So much for accountability. If such a simple regulation isn’t followed, how do we expect to trace the effects of nutritionally altered foods?

          • Peter Olins

            Are you referring to the mouse feeding study?

          • Mlema

            Peter, I’m not getting a study with that link. I was referring to the feeding trials done by Mahyco. There were numerous trials, but those that would reflect on human safety were limited to two. The results were concerning, because aside from bt sweet corn, this is the first instance where people will be eating the whole food – not simply processed, extracted ingredients like sugar or oils. This is a test of the safety of eating those particular Cry proteins.

          • Mlema

            Peter, it looks like that link doesn’t go to a study.

          • Derrick S.

            Regardless of whether the products are healthy or unhealthy for human consumption, consumers should have a CHOICE! It wouldn’t matter if organic was just as unhealthy, it comes down to CHOICE. If we decide we do not want to consume any product containing GMOs or by-products containing GMOs, that is our right.
            What part of CHOICE do you not understand?

          • biff41035

            Just curious but what do you think happens to the peptide binds that hold proteins together in the highly acidic stomach environment?

          • Derrick S.

            Incorrect. There have been nothing but problems in India since they have been forced to grow GM Cotton. Yields are down. Additionally, the animals they allow to feed on the remaining plants after the harvest, died within three days time.
            Maybe you can explain why the suicide rate amongst farmers of the GM Cotton has soared. In the beginning, the government blew it off, as there have always been deaths of farmers from suicide, but now they have taken notice of it and have admitted that it is directly related to the problems with GM crops.
            Not to mention, the farmers save their seed to be used again in subsequent years for which they cannot do with patented GM products.
            This is just a few of the problems I’ve read about pertaining to India’s use of GM crops. I don’t know where you got your information, but I’d check other sources to confirm your findings.

          • Nam

            I don’t think the human race needs to take a chance with the GMO’s because if we do, then people with GMO’s would become far superior to others, which causes a split in human race.

          • rick

            ” In fact, the yield figures I have read (in peer reviewed literature and closed journals) indicate that GMOs have LOWER yields…”
            Not sure why you changed the subject from feedstuff quality as reflected in feed conversion ratios to crop yields, two entirely different topics.

          • rick

            There is very little in your post that I felt answered the assertion I was making, that if Seralini and Carman’s findings were correct, it would be corroborated independently in feed efficiency and measurements of reproductive health such as litter sizes, survival rates, etc., all of which have continued to improve since the introduction of ge traits in crop genetics.
            However, you have indirectly made one point, well that I agree with. I generally lean to the belief that biotech applications in agriculture can contribute to food quality, food security and can provide innovative and environmentally beneficial solutions to agronomic problems. However, I too observe that proponents of biotech do too often in these comment strings assume an air of arrogance and dismissiveness of legitimate questions and concerns of the lay public or even other scientists. There is a tendency to adopt an attitude of some type of a scientific priesthood and that anyone challenging the science or its application are criticized.
            I personally am very convinced that the Seralini study is of such poor quality and tainted by a transparent agenda, that it offers very little of value in guiding our assessment of risks of ge. I am also very convinced that ultimately,the question of whether the process of ge itself inserts novel health risks will be resolved in favor of the relative safety of genetic engineering. For many reasons that I wont go into here, that assumption is corroborated from a variety of approaches that suggest that long-term feeding studies of rats are a wild goose chase.
            That does not end the argument of the value and benefits of ge. I believe the debate about safety is actually a surrogate for the more important and consequential questions of how the technology can be most wisely used. As an analogy, the technology of the internal combustion engine can be used to speed a heart attack victim to livesaving care, or it can be used to help rob a bank. Similarly, I believe the issue is not about the safety or morality of ge itself, but rather what applications of biotechnology in agriculture are of benefit and which are not.

          • Mlema

            Animals have been bred and medicated to have bigger flesh parts (giant breasts on chickens for example, and administration of hormones to cattle in feed lots to fatten them pre-slaughter). The fact that they have comparable weights or that the gross appearance of their organs at slaughter is the same doesn’t reflect on their health in a way that would be significant to humans. Some feeding studies do indicate that some GMOS create immune changes in some tissues/organs. It seems worth looking into before allowing whole foods (like sweet corn or eggplant) onto our dinner plates, even though the current introduction through GMO-fed meat or from sugar or oil extracts seem unlikely to be problematic for people. Right now GMOs are more of an environmental problem. But the industry is counting on us accepting the idea that we already know they’re safe to eat in order to introduce nutritionally-altered/pesticide resistant plants which can also be patented – until Monsanto and others receive a bit of a royalty on each bite we take. (that’s what I think)

        • R. Smiley

          Please, Jon, you don’t know what you are talking about.

          • Susan Parchick

            The studies are all to short to be honest.
            Our cat, 14 years old, was just diagnosed with renal disease…stage 2. After reading, talking to pet owners, and our vet, this seems to be a common problem that happens regularly at about the same age. Vets that see the same pets for years should be recognized as part of the the long term studies. The chances that Monsanto and the others are honest is so slim.

            So many pet owner are faced with cancer, Why is the no data for that?
            It’s a more honest place to invest in the truth about long term effects.
            Our cat had three blood tests, to get teeth cleaned, First was fine, Three years later not so great. At 14, showed stage 2 renal. Why?
            Our cat eats good foods, at least I thought so.
            Check out the top 10 causes of death world wide at WHO. Look up the average age for lung cancer for smokers and non smokers.
            This is data world wide…why is it not counted.

      • Eric

        Sure, as Jon pointed out, I’ve been doing it for pretty much 18 years now anyway. Where do I sign up? :)

    • Wackes Seppi

      If you happen to meet Mr. Antoniou for Happy Hour, ask him why he has not indicated that he is a member of the scientific council of CRIIGEN, the opaque organisation which Mr. Séralini also belongs to and whose objective is to promote the kind of « science » that has just been republished.

      • Antoniou is also listed as contributing to the draft Seralini manuscript. While this not automatically invalidate his opinions, may be hard for him to be truly impartial.

  • Eric Bjerregaard

    Mr. Pdiff, Have you considered that the answer to your question is that Springer is really Jerry Springer?

    • R. Smiley

      Springer is Springer-Verlag. I would hope that this was just a joke.

      • Eric Bjerregaard

        Google Jerry Springer and see for yourself. Btw Many a truth is said in jest. Also For publishing the research of a “scientist” that could be arrested for animal cruelty in many jurisdictions for actions involved in producing that “study” should embarrass both journals.

  • Anandaloha

    Dr Jack A Heinemann, Professor of Molecular Biology and Genetics, University of Canterbury, New Zealand, called the republication “an important demonstration of the resilience of the scientific community”.

    • Wackes Seppi

      The resilience of the community he and Mr. Séralini belong to…

      In the world of real science a discredited paper – criticised if not blasted by dozens of scientists, a dozen regulatory national authorities and EFSA, the six scientific academies of France acting in a most unusual joint move, ethics authorities, journalists and their associations – would not have been republished, at least not without major changes.

      • Mlema

        There was plenty of independent support for the paper because the independent guys didn’t like to see a paper retracted simply due to inconclusive results. It sets a dangerous precedent. Namely, if an industry can influence publication – it can influence scientific and public opinion.

    • mem_somerville

      Yeah. He also said it’s now gone through “yet another round of rigorous blind peer review”, which is false.

  • brent1023

    Monsanto netted $2 billion in 2013.
    According to this paper, the testing Monsanto did to be allowed to sell roundup ready corn involved a few rats for a few weeks.
    Monsanto should fund a proper study – double blind, researchers unaware of what treatments they are giving the rats – that will generate statistically significant results. One way or the other.
    It is takes 10,000 rates for 5 years – get started. Groups of rats at reliable research labs that do this type of testing all the time. Overseen by a researcher independent of Monsanto funding. Or even split it into 3 parts, 3 different independent researchers unknown to each other and not communicating during the test.
    It is in the best interests of Monsanto and their shareholders to put this matter to rest.

    • copperfoxf5

      Interesting fact: Whole Foods and Trader Joe’s makes approximately the same in profits that Monsanto does, each. They don’t invest in food safety research though. With the number of organic food recalls due to E. coli, listeria, salmonella, and other pathogenic contaminants, don’t you think it’d be a good idea for Whole Foods to chip in a dollar to develop safer agricultural methods? Or with how frequently Trader Joe’s was in the news last year for product recalls, does anyone question their food? Nope. Because for some reason, as far as the mass is concerned Organic = Safe. It doesn’t, of course, but that’s what the public believes. But who cares, when all you have to do is put on a label on food, and it somehow magically means “safe” or “unsafe”? That’s what the GMO-labeling proposal is supposed to do, right?

      As much as the Seralini crew speculates that theirs is the only long term study, there are others. And as mentioned in the above statements, new studies long term studies are being funded in Europe. Not like the anti-GMO crowd will pay attention to the results from any of those though….. Because as usual, “I bet they were paid off by Monsanto.”

      • brent1023

        Whole Foods – a retailer – net $142 million. Trader Joe’s – a retailer – net $292 million. So, about one-tenth of Monsanto on net. Neither is developing a new range of crops. Hardly comparable.

        Bringing in the organic argument is a distraction, unrelated to the topic at hand.

        Good to hear that long term studies are being funded.

        My original question remains – Why has Monsanto not funded independent studies?

        Unfortunately your answer has not contributed to my understanding of the issue.

        Disclosure – not part of any vast conspiracy to destroy Monsanto. Just wondering why the state of the science is so poor.

        • copperfoxf5

          Net sales Monsanto 2013: 14.86 billion
          Net sales Whole Foods 2013: 12.9 billion
          Net sales Trader Joe’s 2013: 10.5 billion

          Whole Foods and Monsanto have annual reports available to see online. Trader Joe’s doesn’t, but Supermarket News does have annual profit info available on their website. I don’t understand the point of describing them as a retailer. Like Monsanto, they produce and distribute a product that in the end normal consumers purchase. And they do have something to gain if they are able to eliminate a competitive market.

          And do you realize how your question is an oxymoron? “Monsanto…. funded independent research….” Most of the argument coming from the anti-GMO camp is that all researchers (including those that perform independent research like those listed in the above statements), are being accused of being bought off by Monsanto. Have you seen other message boards where a person makes a pro-GMO statement only to see, “You must be a Monsanto agent/spy/lobbyist.” And regardless, researchers often make a statement referring to conflict of interest. If Monsanto funds the research, regardless of whether the results from that research are in Monsanto’s interests or not, those researchers if they’re being forthcoming will make a conflict of interest statement that they received funding for their study from Monsanto.

          Are you under the impression that independent research hasn’t been performed by anyone besides Seralini? There are over 2000 articles over the last 20 years where studies have been performed on GMO’s to determine whether or not they are safe. GMO food safety studies and assessments have been performed by the USDA, FDA, CDC, WHO, OECD, the The Australia/New Zealand Food Authority, UK Food Standards Agency, the Association of German Agricultural Analytic and Research Institutes, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, the European Union, the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, the Federal Insecticide, Fungicide, and Rodenticide Scientific Advisory Panel, the British Crop Protection Panel, Health Canada, the Europe Novel Food Task Force, the Canadian Biotechnology Advisory Committee, the New Zealand Ministry for the Environment, the Nordic Working Group on Food Toxicology and Risk Assessment, the American Association for the Advancement on Science, the American Medical Association, the National Academy of Science, England’s Royal Society of Medicine, the American Council on Science, the American Dietetic Association, the American Society of Plant Sciences, the International Seed Foundation, the Council for Agricultural Science and Technology, the Crop Science Society of America, the International Society of African Scientists, the Federation of Animal Sciences Societies, the Society of Toxicology, the French Academy of Science, the Union of German Academics, the International Council for Science, and the various academic scholars of the world. Are you under the impression that all of these governmental agencies work for Monsanto? I’m pretty sure that they’re funded using government money provided by the average taxpayer.

          • R. Smiley

            Net sales are not net profits… so while you could spin your remarks as justification for owning stock in Monsanto, it means sfa about what you claim it to be relevent to, and when you introduce arguments of the sort that you have, it casts doubt on your other statements.

          • copperfoxf5

            You’re right. Net sales aren’t profits. Sorry. My background is in science, not finance. And The Whole Foods annual report doesn’t easily show what their net earnings were in 2013.

            So I did another search here:

            And it states, “Total sales for all Whole Food stores reached $12.9 billion in 2013……Costs of goods held steady at about 64% of sales from 2012, resulting in a gross profit of $4.6 billion or 36% of sales.”

            So if I understand this correctly, Whole Foods profits in 2013 were actually more than twice that of Monsanto.

            Allow me to explain myself. Two and a half months ago, I didn’t care about GMO food or organic food or traditional food. I shop and the local grocery store, and I eat at restaurants that obtain food locally. I don’t discriminate which type of food I eat. I’m on lists for petition sites, mainly because I started signing for equal rights. So recently I started receiving messages by various petition sites to sign petitions to label GMO foods. I said, “Why?” Petition sites such as this one states:


            “Contrary to industry claims, GMO foods have not been proven safe, and a growing body of independent, peer-reviewed studies have linked the consumption of GMO foods to allergies, infertility, immune problems, gastrointestinal disruption, cancer, and a host of other diseases.”

            Being a scientist, I started trying to review these “peer-reviewed studies” discussing the detrimental effects described. One of the main study that they’re referring to is, of course, the Seralini cancer study, which despite its republication remains inconclusive, which is the nice was of saying that it’s invalid. On the other hand, there are literally hundreds of articles where safety assessments have been performed, and the conclusions from those articles have not shown any of the above stated side effects mentioned in the petition. I did not pull the list of agencies I wrote in my previous statement out of my ass. It’s called PubMed, a search engine specifically for scientific articles. You can also put an organization’s name into a Google search with the term “GMO” in it, and they will have their own page discussing GMO and GMO research. For example, the European Food Safety Authority’ page on GMO’s


            Anyway, after looking into the research and safety studies, and finding little to nothing to support the petitions claims, I can’t help by wonder who is spreading this information and why. Low and behold, supposed non-profit agencies in organic food, like the Organic Consumers Association and the Non-GMO project are at the head of the anti-GMO campaign. What’s especially charming are the posts the OCA put on their facebook page:


            After looking at some of their posts, it’s pretty apparent that there’s a good amount of fear mongering going on in the anti-GMO and GMO-labeling debate. So here we are, with organic food proponents goading the populous to question whether genetically engineered food is safe, which their followers believe isn’t. Their followers are under the impression that organic = safe and gmo = poison, and that’s how they advertise it. Why?

            P.S.: Whole Foods supports the Non-GMO Project.


            And they’re super rich. Obviously they have far more money than you gave yourself the impression that they do. Which is ironic given the general perception that people have about this debate. Most people talk about Monsanto’s $2 billion dollar profit and wealth, and are imagine to themselves something akin to oil billionaires, who we all know disregard environment and climate change in order to make profit. And then they compare that to what they imagine organic agriculturalists are: a simple guy in overalls with a pitchfork that’s trying to lead a healthy lifestyle. Why is that the impression people have? Maybe marketing? I don’t know? Again, not my area of expertise.

            Organic food is sold under the premise that it’s safer and more nutritious than conventional food. Nobody asks that they prove that their food meets that expectation and standard. Independent research performed (you like independent research, right?) suggests that it does not.



            The point that I’ve been trying to make, specifically to you, and why I bring up profits is this: Why would you insist upon Monsanto investing in “independent research” to prove the validity and worth of their product (which has already been thoroughly researched by scientists other than those employed by Monsanto), but not demand the same of organic food distributors that have the same financial means to do so as well? And please, don’t respond back with, “You’re trying to distract…..” or, “It casts doubts on your statements…..” I get the impression that your answer to this question proves the point I’m getting at.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            so please explain to me why conventional farms are subsidized and do not have to pay fees for spraying toxic chemicals and using gmo seeds, but organic growers get PENALIZED, NO subsidies and have to jump through shitloads of hoops just to produce? skewed to me highly

          • copperfoxf5

            What does any of that mean? Do you have a reliable source that I can read instead, so that I might respond to your unintelligible statement?

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            if you cannot read plain english, then I have no further use to talk to you in this discussion

          • copperfoxf5

            And if you can’t make a citation, you might as well pull fairy dust out of your ass.

          • “And if you can’t make a citation, you might as well pull fairy dust out of your ass.”

            This comment is today’s winner of The Internets, lol.

          • delquattro

            Karen’s characterization of conventional vs organic crops is common knowledge among moderately informed consumers. No cite needed, and since cites don’t come as pictures, it would be useless for you anyway.

          • alykatma
          • copperfoxf5

            Now how’s about the economic impact:

            Traxler G. “The GMO experience in North and South America”

            “Patent holders may hold some monopoly power over pricing of their innovation. Certainly, the price of transgenic seed has been higher than that of seed of conventional varieties, and technology fees are charged on top of such high prices for GM seeds. Does this mean that the marketing firms are extracting all of the benefits generated by the innovation? This is an unlikely outcome because farmers must be receiving some benefits, or they would not choose to adopt. It will generally be true that an innovator will only be able to extract part of the economic benefits created through their research effort. There will always be benefit ‘spillovers’ to be enjoyed by other members of society.

            The estimated amount and distribution of benefits from the introduction of Bt cotton fluctuates from year to year, but total annual benefits created averaged approximately $215 million during 1996–1998. The average benefit shares were 45% to US farmers, 36% to germplasm suppliers and 19% to cotton consumers.”

            “In 2001, RR soybeans created more than $1.2 billion, or about 4% of the value of the world soybean crop, in economic benefits at the global level. The largest share of these overall benefits went to soybean consumers, who gained $652 million due to lower prices. Soybean producers received net benefits of $158 million, and biotechnology and seed firms received $421 million as technology revenue. Soybean producers in countries where RR technology is not available faced losses of $291 million in 2001 due to the induced decline of about 2% ($4.06/mt) in world market prices.”

            P.S. This article also talks about the environmental impacts of GM crops.

            In Bt crops: “In the USA, the number of pesticide applications used against BBWC (budworm-bollworm complex) has fallen from 4.6 in 1992–1995 to 0.8 applications in 1999–2004. Carpenter and Ginanessi (2001) estimate that the average annual reduction in use of pesticides on cotton in the USA has been approximately 1,000 tons of active ingredients. Pesticide use also declined in Mexico as Bt cotton use grew from 0 in 1995–1996 33% in 2000. A 50% reduction in insecticide use and a substitution away from highly toxic chemicals was also reported in Argentina.”

            “RR soybeans change the use patterns of tillage and chemical herbicide use. Glyphosate substitutes for a number of other products, with the result that per hectare herbicide expenditures decline…….. In the USA, the use of RR soybeans has been reported to lead to a decrease in the number of applications, with aggregate herbicide amounts more or less unaffected.

            Herbicides differ in their mode of action, duration of residual activity, and toxicity, so an increase in total herbicide amounts does not inevitably entail negative environmental effects. Glyphosate essentially has no residual activity and is rapidly decomposed to organic components by microorganisms in the soil. According to the international classification of pesticides, glyphosate belongs to toxicity class U, “active ingredients unlikely to present acute hazard in normal use” (World Health Organization, 1988)…….adoption of RR soybeans led to an almost complete abandonment of herbicides belonging to toxicity classes II and III. There are no other herbicides used in soybeans which belong to toxicity class I. Consequently, RR technology has led to an increase in the use of a relatively harmless herbicide and a significant reduction in the use of more hazardous herbicides.”

          • copperfoxf5

            Of course, there’s always the EU’s article:

            “A Decade of EU-Funded GMO Research 2001– 2010”

            A 268 page summary of projects and results for a decade. Chapter 1 (pg 19 thru pg 125) covers Environmental Impacts of GMOs and briefs 21 studies performed. These environmental studies don’t so much examine greenhouse gas effects and pollution as much as they review impact for horizontal gene transfer and impact on microbial flora. Newsflash: “A major finding was that genetically modified plants did not have a negative ecological impact.”

            “So far, no evidence has been found for the evolutionary acquisition of ‘toxic’ genes by ciliates, which, potentially, could harm their hosts. Also, the incidence of acquisition of plantderived genes in evolution appears to be extremely low – if it occurs at all.”

            “Overall, in field trials over several seasons very few negative effects on arthropod biodiversity were found for the Bt-crops tested.”

            “Nutritionally enhanced GM crops can help
            improve consumer health and bring environmental benefits, for example by decreasing the need for pesticides and reducing soil erosion.”

            I love this line: “Only science, using robust data, can disarm the detractors of this powerful and invaluable technology, demonstrating that GM crops are no more harmful for the environment than any other crop. On the contrary, there are clear ecological benefits when viewed within the framework of the role of agricultural systems in maintaining biodiversity.”

            There are also chapters on “GMO and food safety,” “GMOs for biomaterials and biofuels,” and “Risk Assessment and Management”

          • jon

            I said it differently…when people say no gmo advantage exists…I say…so farmers are too stupid to know that ? They just like paying more and can’t really figure out they make less money ?

          • Bill Lockhart

            Excellent copper and jon.

          • copperfoxf5

            That’s cute (like when an infant tries to fit the square piece into the circular hole) how your “citation” is a google search. If you’re talking about the citations about net sales, I included it in my original comment from a year ago.

            If you want to talk about citations concerning economic and environmental impacts don’t use Google. Use Google Scholar. Or, I like to use NCBI.

            Barfoot P, Brookes G. “Key global environmental impacts of genetically modified (GM) crop use 1996–2012”

            “At the global level, GM technology has contributed to a significant reduction in the environmental impact associated with insecticide and herbicide use on the areas devoted to GM crops. Since 1996, the use of pesticides on the GM crop area was reduced by 503 million kg of active ingredient (an 8.8% reduction), and the environmental impact associated with herbicide and insecticide use on these crops, as measured by the EIQ (Environmental Impact Quotient) indicator, fell by 18.8%. In 2012, the environmental benefit was equal to a reduction of 37.5 million kg of pesticide active ingredient use (-8.3%), with the environmental impact associated with insecticide and herbicide use on these crops, as measured by the EIQ indicator, falling by 23.6%.”

            “The fuel savings associated with making fewer spray runs in GM IR crops of maize and cotton (relative to conventional crops) and the switch to reduced tillage or no tillage (RT/NT) farming systems facilitated by GM HT crops, have resulted in permanent savings in carbon dioxide emissions………Over the period 1996 to 2012, the cumulative permanent reduction in fuel use has been about 16 736 million kg of carbon dioxide, arising from reduced fuel use of 6268 million liters. In terms of car equivalents, this is equal to taking nearly 7.44 million cars off the road for a year.”

            ” As a result [of reduced tillage/no tillage practices], as well as tractor fuel use for tillage being reduced, soil quality has been enhanced and levels of soil erosion cut. In turn, more carbon remains in the soil and this leads to lower GHG emissions.

            Based on savings arising from the rapid adoption of RT/NT farming systems in North and South America, an extra 6707 million kg of soil carbon is estimated to have been sequestered in 2012 (equivalent to 24 613 million tonnes of carbon dioxide that has not been released into the global atmosphere). These savings are equivalent to taking 10.9 million cars off the road for one year.

            The additional amount of soil carbon sequestered since 1996 has been equivalent to 203560 million tonnes of carbon dioxide that has not been released into the global atmosphere.”

          • copperfoxf5

            Meanwhile, your “citation” has absolutely no references to any scientific article of any kind, and when I click on links, it leads me to other articles……. that also have no references to any scientific article of any kind. Basically, you’re asking me to believe something because Google and some guy said so.

            I don’t care about the scientifically illiterate not understanding science. What I do care about is that you lack the insight to discern what and who to listen to and what is or is not science, and in turn distrust expert opinion. At some point, you should wonder how and why it is that the oil industry, which is several times richer than Monsanto, isn’t able to buy off the 98% of scientists that say that climate change is real but Monsanto is somehow able to buy off the 98% percent of scientists that approve of GM technology. Why don’t you think long and hard about that.

          • biff41035

            That’s what blows my mind more than anything else. I would speculate that those opposed to GMOs also support global climate change for the most part. How can a group of people reject science as paid stooges in one area and trumpet their findings as irrefutable in another. This also goes the other way too for people who accept the science that has demonstrated time and time again that GMOs are safe and reject the huge mountain of evidence for AGW? I wonder how many people are able to look at scientific findings objectively and come to a conclusion based on evidence without letting their emotions or preconceived beliefs effect their judgement? I know as a more left leaning person I was supposed to be against GMOs and was to a degree until I had to actually look at the evidence for a project in nutrition class. Slate actually has a pretty good article that looked at evidence from many sources and came to the same conclusion I did. It also exposed many of the contradictions and lies of the anti-GMO crowd.

          • One more graduate of Google University? How about making a specific comment of your own?

          • alykatma

            Where are your citations? Copperfox

          • Jim Johnson

            How did you miss all the links he posted?

          • Ken

            In plain English, then, Karen you have NOTHING to support your assertions..right? You have just absolutely destroyed ANY credibility you may have had. Who is doing this subsidizing and penalizing? Remember, cite credible sources, not just ” my mommy or Food Babe told me.”

          • alykatma
          • copperfoxf5

            Meanwhile, I’m from Oregon, and the Farm Bureau here is fine with GMOs.

            “OFB believes that ALL types of agriculture are needed to keep Oregon and American agriculture thriving and to meet consumer demand — including organic, conventional, biotech, and no-tech.”


          • copperfoxf5

            Oh yeah, and Measure 92 didn’t pass. Suck it.

          • noneyo

            That’s exactly why the organic industry is thriving. Thanks for keeping “conventional” consumers uninformed…*as the masses run towards real food.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Likewise for Alabama. Auburn University School of Agriculture agrees that gmo’s and roundup are not harmful.

          • Swick

            Now now, there’s no reason to go off and hurt other people feelings

          • alykatma

            I blame subsidies for GMOs for the worsening of our health as a nation. HFCS is the worst thing to come from this.


          • JoeFarmer

            Hey genius, HFCS was developed in the late 1950s, and the Japanese developed an economical production process in the 1960s, long before anyone ever thought about developing GM crops.

          • Ken

            Are you for real? You can’t seem to even comprehend the links you show here. This one shows nothing about GE foods being specifically subsidized and organic or conventional not. Corn, if this is your point was subsidized LONG before GE foods came out. You really do have your head firmly planted in your posterior. Please show your credentials for the outlandish, wildly exaggerated fairy tales you are promoting here.. Does “Looney Tunes” have any meaning for you?

          • Farmer Sue

            alykatma, sweetie, please talk to a farmer.
            Farmers pay a premium for GE seeds. Premium means “more than.”
            They are not subsidized.
            If you know any who are, let me know so I can get in line for my subsidy.
            As I have said 100 times before, Talk to a farmer before you shoot from the hip.

          • copperfoxf5

            And Hitler blamed the Jews for the misfortunes Germany experienced during the 20’s and 30’s. That doesn’t mean that his blame was legitimate. And I’m certainly not going to fall for blaming all of the world’s problems on GMOs.

          • noneyo

            You don’t have to. There are plenty of other evil corporations to throw in the mix.

          • jon

            I blame you for not knowing corn subsidies went away a few years ago.

          • Farmer Sue

            Subsidy? For growing GE crops? What subsidy? I want mine! All this time I’ve been paying a premium (that means more) for GE seeds, and now you tell me I could be getting a subsidy for GE crops! Kool! Where do I get mine?

          • Bill Lockhart

            Isn’t it strange then that, after over 30 years of eating GMO foods, no one, I repeat, NO ONE, has EVER shown a shred of evidence that they are harmful.

            If you actually understood the process, you would understand the reason. But not understanding lets you enjoy wild flights of fancy, doesn’t it?

          • noneyo

            Cigarettes were a thing once, too. Doctor recommended. Industry denials of toxicity. I’m seeing history repeat.

          • jon

            if you can explain to me the organic penalty…maybe I can. Don’t fool yourself into believing that organic farms have much in terms of “hoops” to jump through…the cost and effort is not substantial.
            PS, corn and soy subsidies are exactly the same, whether gmo, conventional, or organic…the subsidy is zero.
            the information on the internet is free, use it.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            yes, it is, and you should learn to use it much better than what you do.

          • jon

            well, maybe because I deal with regulations it doesn’t seem much to me. If you want to sell certified products and get the premium for that certification…it is a choice you make.

            “In many cases it will cost around $1,200 for an organic processor to get certified and around $700+ for a new organic farm to get certified.

            Additionally, there are many other costs beyond your actual organic application. For example, during the certification process you may have to pay for inspections, assessments, travel costs for your agent, plus ongoing annual renewal fees.
            What I do is work in Industry as an Environmental and Sustainability manager…what were you referring to with your comment ?

            It almost goes without saying, but due to the vast differences in certification costs, you really need to do your research before you settle down with one certifying agent. Make sure you get a written estimate of the certifier’s fee structure and an explanation of how their individual billing cycle works, so you can figure out if the costs are something you’re comfortable with.”

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            you should be forced to pay for the damage to the earth and water systems by using gmo’s and conventional pesticides. you should NOT have to jump through hoops and pay to grow NATURAL food. NOT chemical laden garbage passing for food.

          • natural: existing in or derived from nature; not made or caused by humankind.

            What is a natural food? Agriculture is by definition unnatural. When is the last time you have seen a corn field occurring naturally?

            Europe should be a large forest if was not for humans. This is what real nature should be. Not a romantic organic farm with cows and ladybugs.

            Ho and by the way, organic farming is using pesticide and is less productive than conventional, therefor using more land and water and putting more pressure to destroy the REAL NATURE.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Karen, you keep saying this stuff without ever offering proof, scientific proof, not some random “article” floating around on the internet, that what you say is true.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            The EPA used to produce a report summarizing national pesticide use every two years, but not long after Bush took office they stopped coming out. The last statistics are from 2007 and shows a marked increase in use. from 2007-now, they HAVE NOT released, because of the fact that the jump is exceedingly HIGH due to resistance caused by overuse.

          • Bill Lockhart

            What are you (and the EPA?) defining as pesticides??

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            you aren’t a dumbss. But you play one on the internet

          • Bill Lockhart

            Karen, that’s exactly the response I hoped you’d post. Have no friggin idea what you’re talking about, but you’re going to talk about it anyway.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            actually I do, but like I told my kids growing up, I am not going to do your homework for you.

          • Boulder7777

            Karen, you make stuff up. Your fantasy life seerms real to you when you put it down on paper. Your poor kids. With a mom who models preachy ignorance, and then won’t even do her OWN homework. This is not the Fraud Boob site. You may want to start posting credible links, or valid information, or perhaps reconsider whether this site is appropriate for you.

            Your rants about subsidies for GE farmers are nuts. Farmer Sue has been asking you for several days about these mythical alleged “gmo subsidies” as she says she wants one. Response from you? Crickets. And an arrogant “look it up yourself.” Pretty haughty for a continued stream of misinformation.

            Your rants about pesticide use are nuts. You’ve been asked here for citations for that myth. (on the Fraud Boob site, she wouldn’t challenge you to actually back up your claims, hint hint; you might think about posting on her facebook page for a better response). Your response? Crickets. And an arrogant “look it up yourself.”

            You’re sadly misinformed, ignorant, uncurious, and dead set certain in your fixed myth-based beliefs. I really think GLP is not a good place for you to be posting, if you think you are going to add anything to the discussion about biotechnology. If you have serious questions, or contrary information you wish to post, do that. But spouting nonsense from hack shill sites does not add to your credibility on this site.

            Your poor children.

          • Ah, the old “I actually know something, but won’t take the trouble to tell you what it is” argument. Did your kids ever try that in their homework assignments?

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            my oldest graduated with honors and my youngest was valedictorian.

          • Congratulations, you have smart kids. Now, please take the time to make a coherent argument—or ask one of your kids to do it for you.

          • Farmer Sue

            Karen, your ignorance is matched only with your hyperbole and arrogant presumptions. If you really want to know about pesticide use, and how it has gone down dramatically with the use of GE crops, and the real facts about “resistance,” talk to a farmer. Your adherence to urban myths makes you look pretty silly.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            you make an assumption that I don’t know anything about farming, and don’t know any farmers. You would be wrong. but you don’t care about that, as long as you can keep pretending that your way is a good way

          • Farmer Sue

            Karen, it’s obvious you know squat about farming. It’s not an assumption. This is very, very clear in your posts. And I’m not talking about cute little 4-acre organic gardens, I’m talking about real farming. You think farmers are stupid, drench their fields with pesticides, poison the earth, are slaves to Monsanto. You certainly know nothing about farming.

            I repeat yet again — talk to a farmer. (or stay ignorant — your choice)

          • Farmer Sue

            Karen, you are an insult to farmers all across this country.

            [To others who read her garbage: Click on her name and see all of the various topics she goes on and on about, from porn to child abuse to adoption, all with highly opinionated meaningless trash talk. A troll. Big mouth, lots of opinions, zero knowledge.]

          • Bill Lockhart

            But Karen, you keep pretending you “know” what you’re talking about but never offer a shred of “proof”.
            “Just because you read it on the internet isn’t proof it’s true”, Craig Ferguson.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            an because you don’t actually know one damned thing about me doesn’t make your claim about me true

          • hyperzombie

            It is the USGS that tracks pesticide use, and you can check out all the Data here:

            Pesticide use was the highest in the early/mid 80s and has been trending down since.

          • Bill Lockhart

            And the source of your “facts” is?

            Take your time, we’ll wait.

          • Farmer Sue

            Define “natural.” Define “chemicals.” We’re all waiting for a good laugh here.
            And I’m still waiting for my conventional and GE subsidy.

          • Bill Lockhart

            You pay more for “natural” because people want some sort of certification that the stuff is, actually, “natural”.

            “Natural” or “organic” is just a marketing gimmick to charge 25% more.

            Don’t kid yourself, those farmers make out like bandits, having found a sure fire way to get some suckers to pay significantly more.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            actually I DON’T pay more for natural, because I grow my own. in terms of just about everything I eat

          • noneyo

            That’s a lot of hoops.

          • Derrick S.

            Put everything aside. Bottom line is this: People should have the right to decide whether or not they eat GMO or Non GMO products as well as products with containing their derivatives (period). CHOICE!
            What part of that can’t you understand?
            To hell with everything else. We should have a choice, and we will.
            Did you know that the only location of corn uncontaminated by GMO corn was in Oaxaca, Mexico. “Was,” is the key word here. Upon further examination they discovered it along the perimeters of their fields. My point is that no one should have control over any food crop on this planet. Not the seeds and not the crop. Monsanto’s corn has found its way into nearly all the other farmlands that were sown with organic crops.
            Then Monsanto sends out the goon squad to take samples from fields belonging to other farmers, only to discover their product in those fields. Then they take the farmers to court because they didn’t get paid for the crop that found its way there on it’s own.
            Controlling the seed supply should not be a monopoly.
            There are two issues of importance regardless of any/all studies.
            1. CHOICE
            2. SEED MONOPOLY
            I didn’t mention how it screwed the farmers that normally saved their seed to plant the following year…. Not anymore!

          • Mendez

            I completely agree, and honestly who cares if you eat it or not, food is food, eat it or don’t. No one else can tell you what to do , just eat. If people have a problem with what foods you choose to eat. Just eat them too.

          • Jocelyne

            I completely agree with you. We
            should all have the choice of whether to consume GMO or Non GMO products. It is
            a risky thing to deal with. No one should have a monopoly on what we can and
            cannot consume. It also is not right that there are no areas of uncontaminated
            land. People should have a choice if they want that on their land or not. It should
            all be up to our own personal choice, not what they decide for us.

          • jon

            Jocelynewho has a monopoly on what you can eat ? Does your thinking also mean that hybrid crops also cannot be used for that reason.
            Where do you get your bill of rights…you are just making that stuff up ? Can I sue you if some dandilions come from your property, if leaves come over, if I don’t like the dog dodo ?

          • Michaela

            I agree with you. Eat or dont, like get over it yall trippy for no reason, like stop. Food is food. People have a choice to have GMO or Non-GMO foods in their system.

          • Gene

            unfortunately though so far most people have had no say at all in weather or not we have g.m. released unconstrained across the planet

          • Quincy

            I agree. People SHOULD have a choice to whether or not they eat GMO Corn or Non-GMO Corn.

          • Talking about “people’s rights” is a slippery topic: at what point should your declared “rights” impinge on mine? Are you talking about an ‘inalienable’ human right, or just a personal preference?

            In a hypothetical world, we all might have the right to food, shelter, education, healthcare and voting. There are plenty of really important rights in this world, and your desire to not eat “GMO” foods seems to pale into the background.

            I also take issue with your claim that farmers are getting “screwed”. I never heard a farmer complain about this: are you a farmer, and can share your experience, or can you tell us about an actual farmer who has this concern? Specifically, what seed do you think farmers need that they don’t have access to? I suggest you leave it to farmers to do the protesting: when I last checked, U.S. farmers planted over 90% “GM” crops for corn, soy and cotton. (This is in contrast to the E.U. where politics has trumped the rights of farmers to choose what to plant).

          • Austin M


            Looks like some will be converting back to non-gmo seeds. Money drives most decisions and now gmo’s might become less profitable as they once were.

            As far as “screwed” farmers, Monsanto had a patent on their seeds that says you can’t save seed for next season. Okay, no big deal right? It’s not a big deal if you use Gmo’s. BUT, if you don’t use gmo’s and you save your own seed it can be a big problem. If any of Monsantos seeds contaminate a non-gmo field and they are found saving seed then they are subject to patent infringement. This has happened repeatedly to the ones that didn’t want to use gmo’s in the first place.


            The jury is still out in my opinion about the health effects of gmo’s. I have personally done work with the effects of atrazine on our ecosystem and the findings were quite worrisome (and statistically significant in case you wanted to know).

            I have no financial disclaimers to give

          • jon

            Austin, Monsanto has not sued for the situtation you described. That is one of many urban legands. They have sued for people that have kept seeds for replanting….including that guy in Canada the courts determined lied about it being cross contamination.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Austin if a few GMO plants show up in a field, no one is going to bother the farmer. In the one actual case I can find, the farmer had signed a contract the year before not to save GMO seed yet his following year field was almost 100% GMO,, and Monsanto sued for breach of contract.

            Because of the way GMO seed is developed, the Supreme Court has ruled that GMO seed can be patented, whereas non-GMO can’t.

          • agscienceliterate

            Bill, many thousands of seeds have been patented, conventional and hybrid and organic, since 1930. Patenting is certainly not limited to Monsanto or other specific seed companies.
            And just to re-clarify, Monsanto sells conventional and organid seeds also.

          • Farmer Sue

            I think the activists think farmers are stupid. Farmers are uniformely opposed to sham labeling proposals from uninformed yuppie privileged urban activists with an organic-funded agenda.

            Derrick certainly has the right to be uninformed. He has the right to eat organic and “non-gmo verified.” But he absolutely does not have the right to foist his ignorance on farmers and other producers and consumers.

          • Michael Dwyer

            Actually transgenic crops have increased yields and profits for farmers just ask a farmer or listen to an interview with them. Farmers are free to buy any seeds they like. The reason they mostly choose transgenic seeds is because it benefits them.

          • JOE

            You can google it and many articles you will find

          • Peter Olins

            Today, a typical child may be capable of typing a phrase into a Google search. This is not a measure of truth. Why don’t you just tell us your own point of view so that we can discuss it?

          • alykatma

            The contamination is so wide spread that we must now import organic corn. I prefer safe to Roundup laced food.

          • jimmy dillion

            I agree that we should have a option on the gmo on foods we eat. Theyre might not be a adverse effect on human health doesnt mean its okay for them to make most of our food modified.i still believe theyre is a negative effect yet to be found.

          • @jimmy — I’m intrigued by your willingness to believe in something which is “…yet to be found.” With all due respect, are you similarly agnostic about the possible existence of other things for which there is no evidence? Should we still have reasonable doubt about the possibility that the Tooth Fairy exists?

            There is a big difference between being open to the possibility of something being true versus actually believing it. This is probably one of the hardest things to learn when one becomes a scientist. In the case of the Seralini group, they appear not to have made this intellectual leap.

          • Mlema

            Potential negative effects of genetic engineering, especially those not currently examined as part of development or regulatory approval does – not – equal the possibility that a Tooth Fairy exists.

          • Farmer Donna

            Peter, I’m a little confused by your response. There seems to be fervent belief on each side of this issue, while the data appears to be inconclusive. It is our responsibility to remain objective, and sometimes in our quest to do so, we lose sight of the root issue.

            I strongly agree that the consumer should have the option of deciding whether or not to consume a product and that accuracy in labeling is a moral and social imperative, not just a legal issue.

          • Farmer Sue

            Donna, I’m really curious what kind of a farmer you are, if you are not already aware of the immense burden that would have been placed on farmers if either of the last two labeling initiatives would have passed. I’m thinking you are not a conventional or GE farmer or you would be fully aware of how a labeling / segregation requirement for planting, harvesting equipment and storage would have affected farmers.

          • biff41035

            Why shouldn’t they use GMOs if they are safe? GE papayas saved the papaya industry in Hawaii. Even with anti-GMO quacks fighting them all the way. They’ve been consumed there for more than 15 years. So if there was some inherent problem with GMOs why does it not effect papayas?

          • Farmer Donna

            I believe there are multilpe issues:

            1. The GMO agricultural product
            2. The pesticides designed to be used with a GMO product
            3. There are concerns about the residues of the pesticides and the combined intake of these residues.
            4. There is also concern about the effect of workers exposed to these residues, and the communities in fhe vicinity where the pesticides are applied.
            Objective demographic informaiton would be helpful, but it is not easily accessible. “Sustainability” is a very important concern with regard to our food supply, and maintaining health in the communities where these materials are used is an important part of “sustainability”:


          • Dear Farmer Donna, There are no pesticides designed to be used with any GMO products. There are GMOs that have been designed to be used with pesticides, specifically using pesticides that are among the least toxic agricultural pesticides used today. As a result, the per acre use of pesticides based on toxicity levels has trended downward since the introduction of GMOs, and in the case of insecticides has dropped more than 90%. There are no studies that suggest any dangers from “intake” of any pesticides used in GMOs. There are so-called “hazard” studies, but they focus on exposure not intake. There may be “concern” expressed by some as to worker exposures to pesticide use but it is not related to the two pesticides used more commonly with GMOs. That’s the objective situation. If you have any PRIMARY research from non activist web sites research then please re-engage.

          • Gene

            hi jon, as amusing as it has been to read your comments for the last couple years i’ve decided to step in a bit.. hope you don’t mind

            let’s focus on how you switched mid paragraph from ‘pesticides’ to ‘insecticides’

            while it may be true that insecticide use dropped about 90% there is clear evidence of no decrease (&possibly an increase) in herbicide use

            i wonder if while posting this ‘achievement’ you have ever given thought into the insecticide produced by the plant itsself

            by my calculations (no, the epa does not count endogenously produced insecticides) approximately a thousand metric tons of bt-toxin are ploughed back into soil each year

            please let me know if you come to the same figure, i look forward to your comment

          • Gene, pesticide use based on toxicity per acre is down considerably, which is what matters, and overall pesticide us is down 37% according to the latest meta-analysis:
            All plants produce some insecticides, some more successful than others. Bt crops have resulted in a 10 fold decrease in the broad spectrum insecticides used by organic and conventional farmers–that’s the relevant fact here. There is zero evidence that the natural produced Bt has any deleterious impacts. It’s certainly safer than spraying it (though Bt is effective and comparatively harmless even when sprayed; no beef here with organic farmers who use it).

          • Gene

            im not certain you understood what i was asking. the bt corn for instance is producing bt-toxin itsself. putting aside weather or not you consider bt-toxin is safe for a moment lets just discuss the fact that insecticide is being produced by the crop and debris during the growth cycle is adding to the effective pesticide load on the land

            as for the meta analysis performed by a student using a very small and inconsistent sample set from countries that don’t grow much g.m.crops, i don’t see it as an accurate measure. have you seen an actual review of actual pesticide use comparing g.m.farms directly with non in a similar setting?

          • Gene

            perhaps you missed my response? did you look over endogenous bt cry toxin production to see if my numbers are accurate?

          • DeeDee

            Is that why Monsanto calls their seeds “RoundUp Ready ” ?

          • biff41035

            That’s not a peer reviewed piece of science. It’s anecdotal evidence at best. They are going to spray pesticides either way. There has been no reproducible studies that have shown that GMOs are any less safe than other foods. On the other hand there is a ton of evidence that they are as safe as other foods. I’m a student of science not emotions or fear. I believe in global climate change because of the evidence. That’s why I also support GMOs. Get with the evidence. It blows my mind that the people that are likely to reject all the supportive evidence when it comes to AGW reject the same system that studies GMOs. It’s like they don’t really care about science.

          • Farmer Sue

            Derrick, you are incredibly ignorant about farming. Farmers do NOT “normally” save their seeds. Look up why they don’t. (hint: poor yields.)

            Talk to a farmer.

            You are absolutely wrong about your”right” to force misleading labels on consumers. You don’t have a “right” to force meaningless and inaccurate labels on food, just because you want to. The recent initiatives (which failed) would have required labeling of foods with no GE material in them, and would have exempted many thousands of foods that DO have GE materials, from being labeled. (cheese, for one example)

            Your diatribe isn’t about “choice.” If it was, you’d just quietly go eat organic and “non-gmo verified” foods. Your diatribe is clearly about wanting to push your activist agenda, which is based in misinformation and hype, onto consumers.

            You obviously hate Monsanto. (which, by the way, also sells conventional and organic seeds) Fine. Join out-of-tune guitarist Neil Young and hate corporations. Write a song. Get someone to sing it out of tune for us. Leave the rest of us alone.

            Do you really think farmers are so stupid that they allow themselves to be “screwed” ? Farmers pay more to get GE seeds for many reasons. I repeat: we don’t save our seeds. Patents have been around since 1930. We pay more for GE seeds. Voluntarily.

            Talk to a farmer and learn something. Listen to what they say about GE crops and keep your mouth shut. Or continue to remain a totally misinformed arrogant idealogue. Your choice.

          • Jim Johnson

            You still have a choice. What part of that don’t YOU understand? You can petition your retailers to provide positive labels that their products are GMO-free and then you can settle for those products. Why should it be the reverse? So you can be lazy?

          • Michael Dwyer

            a very simple solution exists if you’re concerned about transgenic crops, that wouldn’t make food more expensive if mandatory labeling is passed. Just buy organic and or only buy products with the “non gmo” label. Problem solved.

          • Abolish Holders OftheLight

            your background is in B.S

          • copperfoxf5

            No. BS is making things up and having no valid reference. Conspiracy theorists like you (nice sphinx pic by the way. I’m sure you worship the eye of providence) tend to do that.

          • Abolish Holders OftheLight

            you are wrong about everything.

          • copperfoxf5

            Again: Citation or GTFO.

          • Bill Lockhart

            Offer some scientific proof, PLEASE!. Random statements of what you BELIEVE are not proof of anything.

          • Mlema

            Comparing Monsanto, Whole Foods, USDA Organic, etc., with regard to profits, is meaningless. They are different enterprises – a biotech company, a retailer, a form of agriculture – they don’t act in the same way in the economy.

          • elizabeth

            your claim is relevant to the article. they have no doubt to their statement because they gave proof and fact on the statements being made of the article.

          • Mlema

            “There are over 2000 articles over the last 20 years where studies have
            been performed on GMO’s to determine whether or not they are safe. GMO
            food safety studies and assessments have been performed by the USDA,
            FDA, CDC, WHO, OECD, the The Australia/New Zealand Food Authority, UK
            Food Standards Agency, the Association of German Agricultural Analytic
            and Research Institutes,…… [etc.]”

            The USDA, FDA, CDC, WHO, and many of the other orgs you’ve listed do not test GMOs for safety. And there are not 2000+ studies on GMO safety.

            Where did you get that info?

          • There are links in the article.

          • Mlema


          • copperfoxf5

            What website do you think you’re on? That reference is from the Genetic Literacy Project….. multiple times:


            And if there is such a huge health risk in consuming GMOs, don’t you think that governmental agencies would investigate it? I’m sure you’re under the impression that they’d just say, “Fu#k it,” but then, they’re not as unreliable as that.

            From the World Health Organization’s wepage:

            Dr Jorgen Schlundt, Director of WHO’s Food Safety Department, “We can hope to gain the health and nutritional improvements of GM foods when we can help countries to research how they can control and exploit the introduction of GM products for the benefit of their own people.”

            CDC report to FDA:
            Title – Investigation of human illness associated with potential exposure to Cry9c

            “An FDA laboratory developed an enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA) method to detect antibodies to the Cry9c protein. CDC sent coded serum samples to FDA for analysis, including serum samples from the affected people and historically banked serum samples collected before Cry9c entered the food supply. CDC also sent serum samples from people identified as being highly sensitive to a variety of allergens. The ELISA method found that none of the CDC-submitted samples reacted in a manner consistent with an allergic response to the Cry9c protein.

            These findings do not provide any evidence that the reactions that the affected people experienced were associated with hypersensitivity to the Cry9c protein.”

            And finally, the USDA:

            “With respect to food safety, when new traits introduced to biotech-derived plants are examined by the EPA and the FDA, the proteins produced by these traits are studied for their potential toxicity and potential to cause an allergic response. Tests designed to examine the heat and digestive stability of these proteins, as well as their similarity to known allergenic proteins, are completed prior to entry into the food or feed supply. To put these considerations in perspective, it is useful to note that while the particular biotech traits being used are often new to crops in that they often do not come from plants (many are from bacteria and viruses), the same basic types of traits often can be found naturally in most plants. These basic traits, like insect and disease resistance, have allowed plants to survive and evolve over time.”

            And that’s just the USDA, FDA, CDC, and WHO. European, Canadian, and Australian regulatory agencies, as well as other agencies in other countries, also study and review genetically engineered foods before they’re released to consumers. GMO’s aren’t the most heavily regulated food in the world because governments are like, “Well, if Monsanto says it’s ok, then it must be ok.”

            And as how just because farmers of 800 years ago didn’t know what genes were when they genetically manipulated wheat to become the common wheat we eat today, so too can I say, “Just because you don’t know that there are over 2000 studies on GMO’s doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.”

            This PubMed search of “genetically modified food” returns 4432 results. Of course, not all of them are specifically pertaining to GMO’s but you get the drift: The earlier GLP link contains another link for a download of the list of articles on safety studies.


          • Mlema

            Like I said, The USDA, FDA, CDC, WHO, and many of the other orgs you’ve listed do not
            test GMOs for safety. And there are not 2000+ studies on GMO safety.

            Monsanto tests it’s own products and tells the FDA they’re safe. If the FDA has concerns, it may ask for more evaluation – all of which is voluntary. Scott’s decided to skip the USDA evaluations on its RR bluegrass, against scientists warnings. And I’m sure there are 2000+ studies that can, in one way or another, be linked to GMOs. It doesn’t mean they’re extensively tested for human consumption. Those tests are few, because, as I’ve said already, humans aren’t consumed GMO whole foods outside of some sweet corn and eggplant. There are lots of different cry proteins, but, more importantly, every GMO is different because the process used, and the species involved can affect the resultant plant in countless different ways. It doesn’t matter how many studies there are on GMOs – unless there’s been at least one relatively good feeding study on a suitable species, it’s irrelevant to human safety. OR – if proteonomic or metablomic studies show exactness in substance, then ok. But it’s the ultimate in silliness to say we have thousands of studies that show it’s safe for me to eat any particular GMO. And the reason we have lots of studies on GMOs that we don’t have on more traditionally bred plants is BECAUSE THEY’RE GMOs. If you believe the clap trap that they’re “more precise, more safe, etc.” then – well, what can I say? I don’t want to be rude :)

          • Rossow

            Monsanto tells the FDA they’re safe, but how do they know for sure. The FDA should ask for further tests just so they know the product is really safe

          • Ken

            The overwhelming preponderance of scientific evidence
            suggests that GMO foods are no more dangerous or less nutritious than their
            corresponding non-GMO counterparts. In regards to the disturbingly popular
            (albeit unsupportable) notion that biotech companies like Monsanto have somehow
            bought off nearly every major scientific organization in the world to accept
            the consensus that the current varieties of GMO foods are as safe as their
            conventional counterparts, consider the following:

            ExxonMobil makes more than 26 times more money than
            Monsanto, and has a higher net profit margin, too. Combined, the country’s top
            5 oil companies have a gross revenue exceeding $1.3 trillion, more than 87
            times Monsanto’s revenue, and yet they still can’t get the world’s scientists
            to say that global warming isn’t real.

            If the oil companies can’t buy a conspiracy of scientists,
            how can a comparatively minuscule company like Monsanto manage it? Spoiler
            alert: They can’t, and they don’t. Yet, all the following reputable scientific
            organizations concede to the scientific evidence on GMO safety:

            American Association for the Advancement of Science

            American Medical

            World Health

            National Academy of

            The Royal Society of

            The European Commission

            American Council on
            Science and Health

            Phytopathological Society

            American Society for
            Cell Biology

            American Society for

            American Society of
            Plant Biologists

            Union of German
            Academies of Sciences and Humanities

            French Academy of

            Transgenic Plants and
            World Agriculture

            Society of Toxicology

            Society for In Vitro

            Crop Science Society
            of America

            International Society
            of African Scientists

            International Society
            of African Scientists

            Council for
            Agricultural Science and Technology

            International Seed

            Now, what do you think is more likely? That Monsanto bought
            off nearly the entire global community of scientists in the field despite being
            an order of magnitude smaller than the Big Oil companies who couldn’t buy off
            those same scientific organizations? Or that the science behind GMOs is valid
            and that claims to the contrary are simply part of a flood of misinformation
            propagated in support of an ideology which is not supported by scientific

            – The Credible Hulk

          • Ye’but—the FoodBabe and Dr. Oz. would probably disagree, so what is the general public supposed to believe?

          • hyperzombie

            the FoodBabe most likely couldn’t pronounce Dr. Ozs first name so she would want him banned.

          • jon

            No kidding the foodbabe….it was almost embarassing going to that webpage to see what she had to say on the science of risk.

          • hyperzombie

            .it was almost embarassing going to that

            I can understand, why one or even a few people could have these insane ideas. But she has so many followers, it reflects badly on the educations system in North America.

          • Including Canada?

          • hyperzombie

            Yes, Canada as well.

          • Ken

            Exactly, they are really good with their mis-information and outright lying. They have no shame for promoting lies for personal gain. Despicable, especially Oz, who knows better. Food Bimbo just makes it up as she goes and contradicts herself later.

          • Mlema

            False comparison. No one’s saying that Monsanto “bought off nearly the entire global community of scientists”. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t have lots of financial and political clout around the world. And oil has lots of influence in politics and regulation as well. It’s naive to think that these multinational corporations have no power in international policies. Read wikileaks on the relationship between Monsanto and the US State Dept.

            Science doesn’t make all-inclusive statements like the ones you yourself are making. And simply listing a bunch of organizations is meaningless.

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            then please explain why so many countries are against gmo’s? you cannot contain them, cross pollination is damned near guaranteed. The seed supply is in danger from this crap. I’d rather eat food that WASN’T spliced together in a fucking laboratory. which is why I have my own seed vault.

          • Ken

            I’ve posted MANY times about this. Many countries are against GMOs due to their politicians being at least as corrupt as ours. They also hope to keep food imports from competing with their own farmers. Check with a farmer for more on any of this. You have your blinders on and your “potty mouth” is fully operational. Last response to you as I doubt you can comprehend scientific evidence either. Have a nice, deluded day. :)

          • Karen Glammeyer Medcoff

            OUR politicians are corrupt in allowing monsanto to go unchecked. period. The people of the us have a RIGHT to KNOW if their food is gmo or not, and also have the right to NOT BUY the crap. period

          • @Mlema — You clearly have a huge concern about the potential safety of a portion of our food supply, and you have repeatedly expressed concerns that we have insufficient data to draw reliable conclusions. Rather than debating the validity of your position, please would you describe a specific scientific research study that would address your concerns? In other words, is your concern truly satisfiable, or just an abstract intellectual construct of a Devil’s Advocate?

            If you are willing to take the time to define such a study, my next obvious question is what other (non-GM) foods you think should be subjected to such scrutiny?

          • jon

            Bam.. Doesn’t matter what “safety” study is done, when they (and most people including me)…could barely understand the concepts used.

          • Mlema

            I’m concerned first about the environment – because 99% of the GMOs we’re growing are herbicide tolerant or bt crops, both of which have negative environmental effects. But these effects aren’t limited to GMOs – however, bt is a special case.

            But yes, I don’t feel that our current regulations protect against reduced nutrition or even toxic metabolites when crops are altered in specific ways. What I would ask is: that independent labs do proteonomic and metabolomic analysis on some new GMOs (those developed with the riskiest processes and with genes/placement most likely to cause disregulation), and that those analyses be scrutinized as well as can be expected with our limited current knowledge – to look for new proteins or other compounds that can appear as a result of GE. I’d also like to see databases built that would allow us to make meaningful comparisons of these new crops. This would allow us to examine crops developed through mutagenesis too, or even hybridization. Right now, we really don’t know what kind of analysis is being done, and when these advanced ways of looking at the results of development are used, we still don’t know exactly what they mean sometimes.

            I think that in light of our goal of improving nutrition this is especially important, because this aspect of plant metabolism is very complicated and prone to surprising us.

            Thanks for asking! Of course, I’m not a scientist, so I would really most like to see independent scientists have a bigger voice in these matters. I do trust our regulatory agencies, but I think they are often overpowered by the industry’s influence.

          • jon

            Mlema….That is true, no conventional, hybrid, gmo, organic, heritage seed is tested in the way you are referring to. Suggestion…define exactly what test you want….fund it…use organic and hybrid seeds as controls….and get too it !
            Why is the obvious not done by the safety critics…because the chance of any test showing a low to non existent….and they don’t want any skin in that game.
            anti gmo spend 20 million to fund labeling initiatives, and not a nickel for peer reviewed (prior) tests with conventional controls….speaks volumes to me.

          • Mlema

            All breeding poses risks for unwanted consequences. For some GE, the risk is comparable to artificial selection between similar plants – not much risk. however, for some methods and species, the risk is great, only less that mutagenic. We should be employing the tools we now have to evaluate these new plants for safety. And, more important to me personally, we ought to be doing more extensive environmental assessment, depending on the trait (not just the form of breeding)

            It’s simply untrue that there is no research showing critical differences between a GE plant and its “parent”. But this sort of research is hard to come by, and only recently are we starting to see that independent scientists are discovering differences in gene expression, protein structure, and nutrition (as examples). This hasn’t been so important in feeding animals that don’t live very long anyway, or in humans only eating extracts of these plants. Certainly there’s been no catastrophe for humans – but any chronic conditions would be untraceable should they exist. And as we seek to engineer changes in nutrition, and to eat the food directly from those plants, we’ll need to be assured of thorough safety testing.


          • Mlema

            Jon, I’m not inclined to try to link you to the many studies which show differences between GE plants and the “parent” from which they’re developed – differences which show the potential (if not the actual) deleterious changes which can occur. My reply was to the person who claimed that governmental organizations are testing these in order to make sure they’re safe for the public. That simply isn’t true. We rely on the industry to develop safe products.

            The example that person gave on Cry9c being investigated by the CDC and FDA was because IT WAS ALREADY IN THE FOOD SUPPLY when it was subsequently determined that it might cause allergic reactions in people with certain nut allergies. That GMO was never supposed to be in the human food supply. But it was, so the CDC and FDA had to follow up, and subsequent deregulation only approves GMOs considered safe for human consumption.

            Also, the stuff on APHIS is outdated. GMOs can now bypass any review from APHIS, and they’ve done so. If the GMO isn’t developed with “pest” genes, or isn’t considered likely to be a week, little is done to investigate what actually happens in the environment when the plants are commercialized.

            It’s an empty challenge to ask “anti-GMO” activists to do the kind of surveillance that ought to be done on these issues. There’s no money, and little access. Independent researchers patiently research various areas of interest, and when they find results that the industry doesn’t like, they’re shouted down and smeared. I’m not willing to look up various instances, but the CSPI has moved, more than once, to try to bring this to rectification.

            So, again, it’s silliness to say there are 2000+ studies on GMO safety.

          • jon

            Yes, it is industry practice to do the safety studies, those which the agency defines. There would be some pretty strong pluses and minuses to FDA doing the testing instead (one negative is you could no longer sue industry for mistakes made) on the plus side, perhaps a greater degree of safety, maybe not. but anyway, I researched your reference to Cry9c, and get your point. But I am not sure we can proactively test to a zero risk end point for any new products, gmo included.
            I do generally think the testing, or the reviews given is a fairly good safety net. Unfortunately some risk is always there.

          • Mlema

            “I do generally think the testing, or the reviews given is a fairly good safety net.”

            To me, they’re not. We’d have to dig in to what those reviews entail in order for me to say anything different, because I have read how they’re regulated and I don’t think we’ve risen to the challenge. I think we’ve just been lucky that the industry has been careful. But when I see, for example, a study from Monsanto on MON810 that claims “substantial equivalence”, and then I see an independent study on the same MON810 that shows a reduction in isoflavonoids across the board, I question the validity of “substantial equivalence”.

            I have other questions too, but I will spare you the diatribe :)

          • @Mlema — As I’m sure you know, levels of isoflavonoids in soy vary widely, depending on variety and cultivation. Do you think that soy harvests in general need to be tested? If so, what would you consider to be acceptable lower and upper levels of isoflavonoids? Which specific isoflavonoids? Why?

            The nutritional benefits and risks of this class of compounds remains controversial. In the mean time, do you think all foods on the market need to be assayed for isoflavonoid levels? Should all soy-based foods be banned until we have certainty about this question?

            Your comments on this, and other, threads remind me of the role of the Devil’s Advocate in Catholic beatification proceedings. This may be a useful academic exercise when it relates to the rare decision about whether someone is qualified to be a saint; however, from your comments, I get the strong impression that there is no set of data that would ever satisfy you. You seem to live in a universe that demands absolute certainty and absolute safety. If so, you are doomed.

          • Mlema

            Hi Peter. The point is: nutrition is being altered. Is this one example? Who knows. Substantial equivalence has no scientific definition. In this case the industry said: “it’s substantially equivalent” – when it wasn’t. We found out because an independent researcher did a similar evaluation. How many other GMOs have significantly altered nutrition that we don’t know about? I’m sure you can show me some industry studies that say: the nutrition is substantially equivalent. But what value does that determination have?

            Those are my questions. You can call me a devils’ advocate if you like. I call it reasonable inquiry.

            “The composition of glyphosate-tolerant soybean seeds is equivalent to that of conventional soybeans.”
            Monsanto compared one of its GE HT soybeans to its isogenic parent for a number of components (listed in abstract) and declared it equivalent.

            “Alterations in Clinically Important Phytoestrogens in Genetically Modified, Herbicide-Tolerant Soybeans”
            “We analyzed the phytoestrogen concentrations in two varieties of genetically modified, herbicide-tolerant soybeans and their isogenic conventional counterparts grown under similar conditions. An overall reduction in phytoestrogen levels of 12-14% was observed in the genetically altered soybean strains…” (one strain that they tested the same one that Monsanto said was “equivalent”)

            One way you might change my mind on this is to provide snon-industry tudies that break down the levels of nutrients in popular GMOs with a side-by-side comparison to their isogenic line. Otherwise “substantial equivalence is too loose.

          • Bill Lockhart

            “an independent researcher did a similar evaluation.” Who?

            And which other researcher corroborated that independent researcher’s research?

            Remember, corroboration is the gold standard for scientific proof. Any study that does not have independent corroboration means nothing, scientifically.

            Surely you know that?

          • Mlema

            The independent researcher is the one whose research I referenced in the same comment.
            Question for you: why do we expect poorly funded independent scientists to “prove” a change in nutrition, instead of requiring the industry to “prove” that the nutrition is the same?

          • Mlema

            Thanks for sharing your personal feelings about my comments, which have nothing to do with the subject at hand. Just because I don’t accept the industry’s rhetoric as readily as you do doesn’t make me a “devil’s advocate” – I would say it makes me a rational and analytical person.

            “The composition of glyphosate-tolerant soybean seeds is equivalent to that of conventional soybeans.”
            Monsanto compared one of its GE HT soybeans to its isogenic parent for a number of components (listed in abstract) and declared it equivalent

            “Alterations in Clinically Important Phytoestrogens in Genetically Modified, Herbicide-Tolerant Soybeans”
            “We analyzed the phytoestrogen concentrations in two varieties of
            genetically modified, herbicide-tolerant soybeans and their isogenic
            conventional counterparts grown under similar conditions. An overall reduction in phytoestrogen levels of 12-14% was observed in the genetically altered soybean strains…” (they tested the same one Monsanto said was equivalent)

          • Bill Lockhart

            i.e., she’ll spare you even more bloviating.

          • Mlema

            Why are you referring to what I said as bloviating?

          • Independent researchers“. Please give us a couple of specific examples who you think have been unfairly scrutinized. The scientific process is brutal, and flawed reasoning and shoddy evidence will be debunked, sooner or later.

          • hyperzombie

            o/o Giving you a high five for that one..

          • JoeFarmer

            Mlema is an idiot.

          • Mlema

            Sorry Peter, I know you are in earnest when you ask these questions. I know you’re not just hoping to imply that the statement is untrue. But I’ve been in many discussions like this and more often than not questions like yours are just a way to force me into doing all the leg work. It’s all available to you to find for yourself if you’re really interested in learning. Nature did a short series on this phenomenon at one point. Perhaps you can find that.

          • Mlema

            also – another method by which the industry overpowers independent researchers is: hire your own research to produce more studies with contrary results. This happened when Syngenta didn’t like HAyes conclusions on atrazine. They pumped inconclusive studies into the literature and then claimed that nothing could be said about atrazine’s effect as an endocrine disruptor.


            ‘Data Quality’ Law Is Nemesis Of Regulation

          • Mlema
          • @Mlema — I think that the negative reaction to Rosi-Marshall’s paper was totally inappropriate: her work on environmental effects of Bt was scientifically motivated—with potential environmental consequences. In contrast, Seralini engages in politics while masquerading as a scientist.

            Incidentally, it’s probably worth considering the relative health and environmental risks/benefits of Bt versus the less selective synthetic pesticides that it replaces.

            BTW I would discourage using independentsciencenews as a credible source. This activist group may be financially independent (with a claimed annual budget of $6K), but independence does not equal objectivity.

          • It’s tempting to get distracted into a discussion about atrazine, a herbicide that appears to pose a substantially greater health threat than glyphosate.

            Ironically, engineered glyphosate tolerance has resulted in a dramatic reduction in the use of atrazine, something I think we can agree is probably a step in the right direction.

          • C’mon, Mlema! Can’t you spare 5 seconds to give us your best example of a name, or 15 seconds more to give an example of a specific paper? Or are you really a closet defender of Seralini 2012?

            The reason that there are so few remaining “independent scientists” working on GMO food safety is that scientists typically ask interesting questions, and no-one is going to get a grant to test if the sun comes up every morning.

          • Mlema

            Actually, I ended up posting a few references only a few minutes after I made the above comment. I don’t know why this site isn’t showing the comments I posted 15 hours ago. If they don’t show up I’ll post them again.

            Because your demands have no end and you don’t seek to learn anything for yourself. Because your goal is promotion of products like glyphosate, dicamba and 2,4D resistant commodity crops, and bt commodity crops. Because any research that shows any negative outcome, whether it’s ecological or human health, must be wrong. Because profitable corporations and the scientists who benefit from their success can do no wrong.

            Got it.

          • Bill Lockhart

            So you don’t have any information available to prove what you say, but believe it should be believed because you say it?

          • Mlema

            Bill, you’re unfamiliar with the VERY lengthy discussions I’ve had on this site with people like Peter. I don’t spend time here anymore because the site editor has removed some of my comments outright without even a notation. It would appear the reason being: no refutation. But thanks for your comment.

          • Peter Olins

            Great to see you, again, mlema, on the interwebs. You’re one of the few courageous folks willing to publicly defend Seralini 2012 (retracted). In order to move the discussion forward, please would you pick the one conclusion from Seralini 2012 that you consider to be credible? Even better, please explain your reasoning.

            I confess that I am totally biased, after reading Seralini 2012 several times, but as a scientist I try valiantly to be open to the possibility that I have missed a crucial argument. I kid you not: please make the case, and I will try to hear your argument.

          • Mlema

            Not interested. I decided to try to stay away from this site after Jon or somebody removed some of my comments without even noting their deletion. Too much bias. But thank you for the compliment. Best wishes. If you’re interested, Seralini published a point by point response to the criticisms of his study. I think the biggest misunderstanding of the study was: it was a toxicology study, not a cancer study. Seralini’s stupidity really works against him, but there was nothing wrong with his study as far as protocol or analysis. The protocol does need to be changed for longer toxicology studies, but that’s not Seralini’s fault. The work was inconclusive and should have generated further study. But who will do it?

          • Peter Olins

            Thanks, Mlema. What do YOU consider to be the most credible conclusion from his 2012 paper? I have read it so any times, but each time I struggle to find any value. No kidding, I’d really like to know what I have missed.

            There are an amazing number of people that cite or defend Seralini 2012, IN GENERALITIES, but there are vanishingly few who are willing to stake their personal scientific reputations by arguing specific points.

            As you say, “the work was inconclusive”: in other words, bad design, bad data, no useful conclusion. Personally, I’m not an animal lover, but even I object to killing so many rats to prove nothing. Where is PETA when you need them?

          • Mlema

            There WERE NO conclusions! This isn’t unusual in science. The research showed what it showed – that there were signs of toxicity. I agree that the protocol could have been better, but it aligned with those in place at the time. Seralini was very careful – knowing he would be scrutinized. The industry’s standards are much more lax – not counting dead rats, not using isogenic feed, etc.

            Typically if a study like this was inconclusive but shows signs of toxicity, there would be a follow-up. Instead, the study was thrown out for being inconclusive. That’s a dangerous precedent. There were plenty of scientists who protested this move, but the industry won out in the end. At least the issue will be revisited as a more extensive study is planned by the European Commission

          • Peter Olins

            Yes, (strangely) I’ve had some deleted comments, too, but I don’t think it should deter you from making valid arguments. Being censored may simply be an indication that you are close to an important truth.

          • Mlema

            LOL – I’m pretty sure that biochica and I went through the Seralini study on a GLP page about “10 studies …something or other” if you can find that page you’ll be able to read all I have to say about the Seralini study. I don’t want to write it all again. Thanks though. :)

          • Bill Lockhart

            Jon, as usual, she (they) are not inclined to try to show you any proof of what she (they) claim is true.

            They can’t, so they “won’t”. Also called “bloviating”.

          • Mlema

            Bill, I just don’t think there’s any point in providing the evidence in this forum. The site has removed comments I’ve made without even a notation – for no reason other than apparent dislike. Why should I waste my effort?

          • This is an important point. Regular scientists typically ask questions where they don’t already know the answer: no-one will get a grant for asking whether the sun comes up every morning. This is why mainstream science has become bored with the GMO safety “question”, and there are only a couple of fringe labs that continue to show that the sky is falling.

          • Bill Lockhart

            One proof is that virtually all corn consumed by humans in the US or by livestock have been GMO for the last 30 years. No harmful effects have been evident, other than the raft of emotion based faulty thinking derived from hundreds of phony “studies” floating around the internet.

            Please show one corroborated (the gold standard of scientific proof) scientific study that indicates gmos are harmful!

            Corroborated means the study has been duplicated by other scientists and the same results have been achieved. Until such appears, no scientist accepts anything as true.

          • Mlema

            And yet the claims of equivalence and long-term safety made by the industry have not been corroborated.

          • Bill Lockhart

            And your proof of that is the huge number of people dying after eating GMO foods for 30 years? Don’t you find it strange that the life span of Americans keeps setting new records? After eating this “crap” for 30+ years?

            And I find it strange that you so easily accept a phonied French study, where the SCIENTIFIC magazine that originally published it, withdrew it, and all the collaborators on the study have disowned it?

            Not to mention the simple fact that the study used rats bred to develop huge body tumors if overfed, and Seralini refuses, still, to divulge how much he fed the rats in the test group, therefore making it impossible for any true scientist to corroborate his result.

            Don’t you find that strange? I wonder that it doesn’t bother you in the least.

          • Mlema

            I didn’t call it crap. But we haven’t been eating it for 30 years. We have been eating the cows and other animals that have been eating it. And we’ve been eating various ingredients extracted from it – but we haven’t been eating it.

            As to connecting eating GMOs to a longer life span – how are you claiming a connection? The life expectancy for younger people is now shorter than it is for their living grandparents – due to obesity and it’s related diseases. Also, some childhood cancers have increased.

            I’ve already had more than one lengthy discussion about the Seralini study on this site. Sorry, but not interested. Both “sides” are publicly available to peruse. People seem to be inclined to only read what lines up with their beliefs about GMOs, and aren’t interested in the research itself.

          • alykatma

            How do you balance the nutritional improvements of GMOs (which I doubt) with the toxicity of the chemicals required to grow them? GMO’s are chemically intensive crops and also require more chemical fertilizers as the soil is depleted.

          • JoeFarmer

            Where in the world do you get this stuff?

          • Ken

            Who says GE foods are nutritionally superior to conventional? The 2000+ studies made show no notable differences in nutrition or safety between them. The pesticides used with GE foods are about as low on the toxicity scale as it gets. They were specifically designed to require FAR less inputs of pesticides than conventional. Don’t forget that conventional crops also require pesticides and most are highly toxic and are used in larger amounts. So far on this thread you haven’t post anything scientifically true. Here’s a link to the studies and oh, yeah, it’s on this very site. Have a nice delusional, fear mongering day.

          • jon

            and who, besides golden rice, has been claiming nutritional improvements ? I agree with your statement about chemical intensive…but that is true for conventional crops also. GMO is the poster child for corp farming practices….get rid of gmo…the exact same problems still exist…net….no improvment.

          • Bill Lockhart

            It takes far less chemicals to grow GMO crops than it does standard crops, that’s one of the big economic benefits. AND the chemicals used (glyphosates) are far, far less harmful to the consumers and the environment than the previous chemicals, which were also used in far larger quantities.

            Numerous scientific studies corroborate these statements, vs no corroborated scientific studies showing they are false.

          • zACK

            anything could happen when messing with gmos yeah they’ve done all the research on safety but your never really sure that your completely safe

          • Ken

            Anything could also happen when you’re in a car on the highway. They’ve done all the research on safety, but you’re never really sure that you’re completely safe. Sound familiar?

          • Derrick S.

            I stopped reading when you began the false statements declaring that the FDA did research. That is a complete LIE!
            Follow the money. While you’re at it, you can explain why so many researchers have been terminated? Some from universities while others from Monsanto and independent agencies were let go and completely discredited because they put up a red flag.
            As a cultivator of medical cannabis I know all about human nature when it comes to greed. It takes one to know one.
            The only difference is that the product I produce isn’t causing harm to the public. Just a quick side note: The U.S. government had in excess of 1,000 patents related to cannabis by 1974. Think about that in your spare time.
            I am working on the cutting edge of cannabis research.
            Back to the topic at hand; none of the government agencies have done any research on GMOs. They have on pesticides.
            I am a certified restricted use pesticide applicator with endorsements in Turf & Ornamental, Weed and Right of way since 1993 and I worked as an applicator since 1988. I only mention it because I work with many others in the Ag industry, landscape & irrigation industry and the chemical business.
            These companies are all about their bottom line. That will not let anything or anyone get in the way of those profits–regardless of risks to public health.

          • Ken

            Who are these researchers terminated because of Monsanto? You should be able to enlighten us so we can protest this injustice. BTW, you really shouldn’t be sampling your product. Grin.

          • LogicDefined

            I wonder if this isn’t the reason the “anti-Monsanto people” aren’t “buying” the report: “Simultaneously, there is a deplorable worldwide trend of governments silencing scientists for political ends [5] (Politically Correct Science for the Masses, SiS 61) thereby effectively curtailing people’s access to information potentially vital to their safety and well-being, and based on which they can exercise their democratic right as voters. It is also an intolerable restriction on the freedom of scientists to speak as scientists and as ordinary citizens. Scientists must be free to tell the truth and express their views accordingly on scientific issues.”

          • @LogicDefined—Cutting and pasting material from other websites is not a substitute for rational argument. Could you please state your point in your own words?

          • Abolish Holders OftheLight

            Monsanto is 100 years old and is embedded into parts of the government and the military bud. yes they would pay off every major agency to get stuff approved and pay off independent researchers all day bro you have no idea what is going on

          • Abolish Holders OftheLight

            you also dont understand most of the tax revenue is not apportioned like constitutionally required bud.

          • Don Belanger

            Are you a Monsanto agent?

        • Derrick S.

          Because it has been corrupted by greed! I agree with your reply with exception to your disclosure. After extensive research of Monsanto going back to 1904 in addition to Dow Chemical and others, I wouldn’t blame those on a witch hunt. There is evidence, stacks upon stacks, that clearly displays their motives…. Profit! Anyone who puts profits above the health concerns for the general public should be cut off at the knees and then at the neck!

        • biff41035

          I dint think you are capable of understanding the issue as you bias is too great. This study was so bad it wouldn’t even be considered science as the many independent experts above attest too. There is looking at something objectively and there is wanting something to be true.

    • jon

      they make less than the Gap stores.
      note that for all the complaints about the lack of study….none of the complainers puts up a penny to fund a peer reviewed study…easy to critique, than do.

      • Sam

        Totally agree. If people want to complain about the lack of research and study , they should quit complaining, do something about it, and make it happen.

        • Nick

          and what if they do not have the proper funding or approval to do said testing

      • AppleJack

        I agree Jon! They really should start working on fixing the problems! They will not be able to fix themselves. They are just wasting valuable time.

    • mmmmmmmmm

      The authors reach essentially the same conclusions that were already refuted and they don’t take into account the fundamental criticisms addressed to them.

      Looking specifically at the tumors: The breed of rats used is subject to spontaneous tumor development. To identify a statistically reliable increase in tumors in a group of rats requires a large number of individuals. This re-publication is still deficient on this point.

    • magriel moya

      Good job you
      have a lot of good facts. Because you have proof on the statements being made about
      the article.

      • Mr. Brace

        True, but a little more detail would preclude with more judgement about the article, so yes great facts, but would like more of an opinion into the conclusion of your decision.

        • LongJohnCoppers


          • Mr. Brace

            An how is this concluding me as such as a “Retard”

          • WienerLicker67

            He told you

          • Mr. Brace

            Your point? Just because you act all hard ass doesn’t make you cool, WienerLicker67. Calling someone a “Retard” doesn’t merely disrespect someone as you would think it would. It just proves that you’re stupid enough to make the comment, you can name me as such as a “Retard” doesn’t make it true, it just concluded that you’re a sorry excuse for a human-being

          • Nick

            Damn dude

          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Fuzzy_Biscuit


          • Nick

            shut the fuck up both of you

          • Mr. Brace

            Sorry excuse of an idiot, the queen of England, who’s 3/4’s dead has better come-backs than you do.

          • Nick

            damn dude

          • LongJohnCopper

            If i wanted my comeback I would wipe it off your moms chin

          • Lucas


          • Banana Man

            I agree Lucas

          • Fuzzy_Biscuit

            Did your mom throw away the coat hanger after the first try?

          • Nick

            no ……. maybe ………. YES :(((((((((

          • Mr. Brace

            It’s not our fault your birth certificate is an apology letter from the condom factory.

          • Fuzzy_Biscuit

            Did your mom put your head in the toilet alot?

          • Mr. Brace

            Wow, only you would be dumb-ass enough to conclude such a stupid ass comment. As well as it takes one “Penis” to know another.

          • Nick

            that’s some deep shit for a guy who is sitting right in front of me

        • Nick

          while a little more facts would be nice in this case, maybe look at this a little different, what if his whole opinion is just what the article says and he agrees with the article to the fullest

    • Lucas

      I completely agree. Monsanto seems very shady. Why doesn’t the CDC or FDA get involved? :P No funding?

      • alykatma

        CDC and FDA are run by ex-Monsanto employees, These agencies are a revolving door of chemical company insiders.. Why would anyone trust a chemical company with our food?

        • JoeFarmer

          You’re demonstrating a high degree of ignorance.

          The head of the FDA is Margaret Hamburg, M.D. She has a distinguished career in public health and has no connection to Monsanto.

          The head of the CDC is Tom Frieden, M.D. He also has a distinguished career in public health and no connection to Monsanto.

          It says a lot about you that you can see something on an activist website, and you’re too lazy to verify it for yourself.

    • ang

      Anyone with shares in Monsanto? Obvious isnt it? Sell

    • angelina

      Come, on? why would they produce a study that shows their food is toxic? $$$$$$$$$$$ They know it is toxic, they know that glypho resistance, means the plants dont uptake nutrients (if they uptook soil nutrients, they would not survive roundup)……… they know the bt toxins in the corn, dont even kill the target bugs now, the whole of USAs grain industry is now so infected with this rubbish. Even USA’s ORGANIC, can be 100% GMO, say the wind blew when the neigbour planted his GMO crop? That Organic farmer, LEGALLY, can sell his GMO infested crop as 100% Organic……….. cause he didnt plant to GMO…………….. A bit like saying the water in Fling is 100% pure springwater, because the Flint bureaucracy, didnt actually tip the lead into it……….. Sorry, USA< agriculture, and these sorts of absurd twisting of the truth, you are becoming the laughing stock of the world……….

  • copperfoxf5

    Republication of the Seralini study seems like a double edged sword. From the republished article introduction, “The only aim is to enable scientific transparency and, based on this, a discussion which does not hide but aims to focus methodological controversies.” That, I believe, is a positive. What I’m wary of though is in which context this study will be referred to, and by which audience. If this article were cited in a context referring to methodology, fine. But what’s more likely is that this article will be cited in context of it’s conclusions of exposure to Roundup not by scientists or peers, but by agenda driven conspiracy theorists that are all too eager to, “Find the one article that disproves all the rest.”

    From a review released by the European Commission discussing GMO research, “For us, our planet is one large natural genetic pool where all living organisms continually activate and deactivate genomes in response to perceived environmental stresses…… So, for a scientist in genetics, the act of splicing to generate a transgenic organism is a modest step when compared to the genomic changes induced by all the ‘crosses’ and breeding events used in agriculture ….. it was a surprise for many scientists to discover that public opinion did not ‘buy into’ this line of thought.”

    That’s the bugger here, is public opinion and public perception. Public belief is not science. Fox News’ clips discussing polls saying that 1 in 4 Americans don’t believe climate change exists is a testament to that, as well as other statements already made in this comment thread speculating Roundup as being toxic or carcinogenic. Scientists underestimate what it means to “defend themselves” in terms of public opinion, because public opinion is not based on rational argument, intellectual rigor, and reproducible study. It’s based on emotion, hearsay, and conjecture. You can scrutinize the methodology of the Seralini study until you’re blue in the face. They only walk away with the part they do understand….. “Tumors seen in mice…..”

    There’s the old saying, “People fear what they don’t understand.” It’s true. When I scroll through comment threads discussing vaccine controversy, the comments that I see from the anti-vaccine camp are made by those who have virtually no formal knowledge or education in immunology and pathology. But they passionately and fervently believe that vaccines are dangerous so much that regardless of any educated comments made against their belief, they refuse to listen. And there are A LOT of people like that. The thing is that with as big a controversy as vaccination is at present, it’s still much easier for the overall public to understand vaccination and immunity than genetics and genetic engineering. You have that much more of the common man you have to convince, and you have to do it in a way that they can understand and that doesn’t frighten them. Personally, if I don’t understand something, I learn it. I have quite the varied background in scientific education to support that claim. What I fear is not what I don’t understand. What I fear is an ignorant mass that through opinion, popularity, and politics influences mankind’s well being. And that influence isn’t necessarily positive. How could it be when they don’t know what they’re talking about?

    • JuHoansi

      Translation: the public is stupid. We the technocratic elites know what’s best for everyone.

      • copperfoxf5

        Are you saying that these people know better?

        • JuHoansi

          Is that the conclusion you draw from what I said? Wow.

          • Derrick S.

            My point exactly!

      • Derrick S.

        Include yourself in that public group. Blessed are they who know what is best for them, for never shall their minds be terrorized! You do NOT know what is best for everyone (period). You may know what is best for you, either way, that is your responsibility. Idiot Savants such as yourself should not have the authority to make choices for others.
        Stay in your lab and do what you are told. Don’t think that because you can play Master Creator of your own little world in a lab that you are qualified to do so outside of the lab.

        • JuHoansi

          um…I was being sarcastic.

    • Derrick S.

      How about CHOICE? It comes down to CHOICE!

  • Freeballer

    I have no background in statistics or medicine, so I have to rely on the science to tell me if its safe or not… I believe, however, I have a finely honed b.s. detector… and it has been going off ever since I first read of this re-publishing on social media, and the last hour or two reading the abstract/conclusions and summaries on various sites..

    I think the retraction was perhaps a little too far, because its important to have all evidence available, pro/con. But I DO feel this paper should have some disclamers reg. its “scientific” accuracy. Nothing, so far, has indicated to me that this is nothing more than a re-hashing of the same findings as before.. And I haven’t seen any rigourous peer-review testing of said study… So I have to rely on the 2000+/- studies done around the world, 30% or so done independently from “big seed corperations”.

    Everytime skeptics, like me, try to bring evidence into this conversation we get immediately labeled as being on mosanto’s payroll.. Which is funny, to me, but sad since public perception counts more than evidence/facts. So many buy into propoganda and anti-gmo hysteria without actual proof

    • FYI, the retracted study was never pulled from databases. It was just labeled “retracted” but was available for anyone to read.

  • Good news: the retracted Seralini work needs to be accessible to the public, as an egregious example of flawed research, and flawed peer-review.

    However, this is NOT re-publication! The abstract summarizing the main conclusions of the paper was changed substantially. Since the main flaws of the paper were the study design and interpretation of the data, the abstract should have been republished verbatim. (Did the Springer editor forget to check the two versions? If not, why didn’t she explain why Seralini was allowed to change the abstract?)

    The original version of the article is still available on the Elsevier website, albeit with the word “RETRACTED” superimposed on every page, so what is the purpose of re-publishing? In addition, the copyright of the original version is held by Elsevier, so how come Springer is not infringing? Surely, Elesevier would not want to license the text to an outside publisher?

    Finally, the Seralini group claimed that it had a large amount of data that would not fit in it’s original publication: instead of rehashing old data, why wasn’t the paper re-worked, to include the expanded data-set?

  • Jean De Lapp

    I just have one question for the researcher in favor of GMO, glyphosate. Knowing that the opposition to this republished paper that has been peer reviewed, would they eat foods that were raised or grown with pesticides as round up and think it was safe to eat a food that has been poisoned with poison?

    • Glyphosate is a pesticide; genetic modification is a process of gene selection. They are not really related directly. They are linked in glyphosate tolerant crops, but that’s just a few of dozens of GM crops. The republished paper was NOT peer reviewed. Glyphosate is a pesticide but it is not more a “poison” than salt, which is far more toxic is a poison. There are many organic pesticides that are far more toxic than glyphosate, which is comparatively quite mild and one of the safest pesticides used in agriculture worldwide. Hope this clears up some of the scientific misunderstandings in your post.

      • Mlema

        Monsanto got in trouble for saying Roundup is safer than table salt. It’s just not true Jon so you’d best stop saying it. Roundup resistant plants were a good idea whose time has passed. Too much resistance, coupled with overuse and its negative effects on soil, amphibians, etc. should indicate it’s time to move on to new ways of thinking about agricultural pest management. That’s what the biotech industry has done. They now stack pesticide-resistant traits and the toxicity of our pesticides continues to grow, regardless of how relatively safe glyphosate might have been. It’s passe and just a distraction from the bigger problems in our agriculture today.

    • David Smith

      To answer your question – glyphosate has been shown to have effects at or below the NOAEL (No-observed-adverse-effect-level):
      Benedetti et al. (2004).The effects of sub-chronic exposure of Wistar rats to the herbicide Glyphosate-Biocarb. Toxicology Letters 153(2): 227–232

      El-Shenawy. (2009). Oxidative stress responses of rats exposed to Roundup and its active ingredient glyphosate. Environmental Toxicology and Pharmacology 28(3): 379–385

      Romano et al. (2012). Glyphosate impairs male offspring reproductive development by disrupting gonadotropin expression. Archives of Toxicology 86(4): 663-673.

      Chłopecka et al. (2014). Glyphosate affects the spontaneous motoric activity of intestine at very low doses – In vitro study. Pesticide Biochemistry and Physiology 113:25–30

      Roustan et al. (2014). Genotoxicity of mixtures of glyphosate and atrazine and their environmental transformation products before and after photoactivation. Chemosphere 108: 93–100

      • David, I’m a little puzzled by your list of references. Perhaps you were mistaken in your selection: two were in vitro studies and one involved intraperitoneal injection, so they are not relevant to NOEAL determination.

        I was only able to see the abstracts for Benedetti et al., and for Romano et al., so perhaps you could give us a little more detail on the studies, and tell us how the authors explained the difference between their work and other published research? Thanks.

    • Vm

      the republished paper was not really peer reviewed

      \Nature, however, reports that the journal’s editor-in-chief, Henner Hollert, communicated to them:

      “We were Springer Publishing’s first open access journal
      on the environment, and are a platform for discussion on science and regulation at a European and regional level.” ESEU conducted no scientific peer review, he adds, “because this had already been conductedby Food and Chemical Toxicology, and had concluded there had been no
      fraud nor misrepresentation.” The role of the three reviewers hired by ESEU was to check that there had been no change in the scientific content of the paper, Hollert adds.”

      So the paper was not re-peer-reviewed, despite Seralini’s claim. It was just republished, with the addition of more raw data and commentary by Seralini.\

  • Vm

    \Nature, however, reports that the journal’s editor-in-chief, Henner Hollert, communicated to them:

    “We were Springer Publishing’s first open access journal
    on the environment, and are a platform for discussion on science and regulation at a European and regional level.” ESEU conducted no scientific peer review, he adds, “because this had already been
    conducted by Food and Chemical Toxicology, and had concluded there had been no fraud nor misrepresentation.” The role of the three reviewers hired by ESEU was to check that there had been no change in the scientific content of the paper, Hollert adds.”

    So the paper was not re-peer-reviewed, despite Seralini’s claim. It
    was just republished, with the addition of more raw data and commentary by Seralini.\

  • Most of the responses from scientists listed above are gibberish.
    The controls and size of the group along with the type of rats used are consistent with Monsanto’s own research.
    So what is the real issue these clowns bring to the table???

    • Hi Jack,
      Have you read the original Hammond (Monsanto) and Seralini (retracted) papers?
      Seralini focuses on the development of tumors, which is not a meaningful endpoint for this strain of rats after 2 years, since we already know that this strain has a high propensity for tumor at an advanced age, and the detection of any difference in tumor development would require a much larger number of test animals. (It is totally inconceivable that Seralini would not have known this).

      Unlike Hammond, Seralini failed to present the typical toxicological endpoints (mean values, plus or minus standard deviation). All these data were obtained after 15 months of study, but no analysis was performed. Why? My hunch is that there were no significant effects, or they would have been presented—but perhaps I’m cynical. Instead, Seralini offered an unorthodox analysis, which, as far as I know, is useful for finding interesting trends, but is not amenable to a rigorous statistical analysis.

      “Clowns” is a distraction, but I’m sure a number of scientists on this forum might consider a dialog if you are willing to engage on a substantive level.

      I look forward to your response.

      • Mlema

        The study was retracted due to inconclusive findings. A first in the history of journal retractions. But the EFSA is funding a long-term cancer study and will use 50 rats. So hopefully we’ll find out, after all these years :) what the disposition of this issue is.

  • Roundup does not break down into an inert product.
    Wheat desicated with Roundup continues to kill the seed over months of winter storage
    Germination drops off dramatically over a 5 month period.

    • Hi Jack,
      I’m not clear what your point is, here.
      Assuming you are talking about wheat grown in N. America, according to an agronomist I talked to, the use of glyphosate to “desiccate” wheat is unusual here. Glyphosate is typically applied pre-planting, to remove weeds. Are you referring to a European country?
      Where are you getting your information? Let’s discuss.

      • Mlema

        Roundup (or glyphosate) is used to “dry-down” wheat prior to harvest/processing. That’s why non-organic whole wheat has high residues of this pesticide. If you’re going to eat whole wheat, eat organic. If you eat white wheat – much of the pesticide residue has been removed.

        • @Mlema—Can you show your source of information?
          How do you define “high residues”?

          • Mlema

            I’m looking at the FAO statistics from 2005. Of course, glyphosate use has only increased since then. And I would say that in the case of Roundup use on other crops, we can’t talk about glyphosate alone.

            The EPA has increased the acceptable limit of residues on food, and now in several states we have approved the use of glyphosate with 2,4D (and surfactants). Discussions about the toxicity of glyphosate are passe – it’s effectiveness is continually being reduced and we’re stacking it with more toxic pesticides. And it’s always contained surfactants.

            So, again, for those who eat whole wheat – avoid non-organic sources. If you buy non-organic wheat, then avoid whole wheat products. I’m offering this advice as a simple public service of sorts. It’s not good to eat Roundup – regardless of Monsanto’s claims. And people need to realize that just because we’re not growing GMO wheat doesn’t mean our wheat doesn’t have Roundup on it. Roundup is everywhere – lawns, schoolyards, foods, etc.

          • Mlema

            UK samples taken in 2011 found that in white there were 7 instances of residue out of 70, while in whole wheat there were 13 out of 35. It doesn’t reflect on amount, which of course is always considered “safe”. You can look at FAO statistics for actual measurements – although the most recent data seems to be from 2005. I’m not going to spend too much time on this because I already posted one reply and it disappeared. To me this is about the trend to increase pesticide (herbicide) use – we use Roundup on lawns, in parks, schoolyards, food crops, etc etc etc. We’re engineering resistance into more and more plants (Scott’s RR Bluegrass seed didn’t even go through APHIS review) It’s ubiquitous and isn’t as safe as we’ve been led to believe – due to “non-active” ingredients. And now, with resistance appearing more and more, we’re stacking the resistant trait with resistance to more toxic pesticides. Spraying it on wheat is just another way to sell it. I’m just trying to let people know – if you’re eating whole wheat to be more healthy, then you might consider sticking with organic, because that’s the only way to be sure it doesn’t include residues. Or – if you can’t afford organic, eat white. The hull is stripped so the residues are reduced. I don’t know if this is widely done in the US, but it might be. Who knows?

          • Mlema

            Not sure what’s going on Peter. I’ve posted 2 replies and they’ve both disappeared. Not sure if I should try again beyond this! I’ll see what happens this time!

          • Mlema

            notably higher than other food which has glyphosate residues – which is most food. check FAO stats and there’s also lots of info on the EPA site, but they make it complicated to get to. You have to look into the requests for tolerance increases, and then open pdfs – you’ll find stats on residue.

      • Mlema

        Peter, my replies below keep disappearing, so I’ll try posting a reply here.

        UK samples taken in 2011 found that in white there were 7 instances of residue out of 70, while in whole wheat there were 13 out of 35. It doesn’t reflect on amount, which of course is always considered “safe”. You can look at FAO statistics for actual measurements – although the most recent data seems to be from 2005. I’m not going to spend too much time on this because I already posted one reply and it disappeared. To me this is about the trend to increase pesticide (herbicide) use – we use Roundup on lawns, in parks, schoolyards, food crops, etc etc etc. We’re engineering resistance into more and more plants (Scott’s RR Bluegrass seed didn’t even go through APHIS review) It’s ubiquitous and isn’t as safe as we’ve been led to believe – due to “non-active” ingredients. And now, with resistance appearing more and more, we’re stacking the resistant trait with resistance to more toxic pesticides. Spraying it on wheat is just another way to sell it. I’m just trying to let people know – if you’re eating whole wheat to be more healthy, then you might consider sticking with organic, because that’s the only way to be sure it doesn’t include residues. Or – if you can’t afford organic, eat white. The hull is stripped so the residues are reduced. I don’t know if this is widely done in the US, but it might be. Who knows?

  • Derrick S.

    What is amazing is that Seralini’s study was the same exact experiment that Monsanto did, with one exception. Monsanto’s study was a 90 day study. Seralini’s study was two years. The rats in Seralini’s study didn’t develop tumors until the fourth month of the study; one month longer than Monsanto’s study.
    Personally, I think another study needs to be done, and it should be done on humans. Since they are selling their GMO corn for human consumption, then why not study humans?
    The study should look at the relationship between the microRNA in the corn and that of the microRNA in our intestinal tract. This relationship determines the adjustments made to the digestive tract. Ultimately this alters our DNA. This area needs closer examination.
    I cannot believe that GMO Corn was released for human consumption without first doing exhaustive research for a five year period to ensure that it was safe. Then when you consider the fact that the right hand to the head of the FDA was previously the vice-president at Monsanto, and prior to that he was the head of the FDA roughly four administrations back.
    Then you need to consider the amount of money spent by Monsanto, Coca-Cola, Dow Elanco and others to block food labeling, they could’ve paid for the relabeling of products more than once already. Besides, the First Lady, Obama, changed the nutrition label requirements just two or three years ago. Sounds like a perfect time to add the tiny words, “GMO” or “NON GMO” to the labels of all products containing GE ingredients.
    Research or no research, the public has a right to know what is in the food they eat and to have the choice to decide whether to feed their families foods containing GMOs.
    It is beyond obvious when companies in the food industry spend the amount of money to block labeling that they have, but I guess most of the public is either to stupid or will not take any concern until they have a serious medical condition themselves. Someone needs to do the study exactly the same way that Monsanto conducted their study, but it needs to be extended because 90 days is a joke. Look at all of the research conducted on cigarettes and tobacco with relation to cancer. Remember all the arguments about whether or not it caused cancer? Remember the lawsuits that followed? Monsanto, Bayer, Dow and the rest of the companies involved in the BioAg industry are no different from RJR, Phillip-Morris and the other tobacco companies. GREEDY!
    Do the research and prove them wrong so that the lawsuits can begin against not only the BioAg companies, but the U.S. government for negligence caused from them authorizing sales to the public and their signing of the Monsanto Protection Act, not to mention the State Department pushing the sale of their product to foreign governments. You would think the State Department was being paid a commission by Monsanto for pushing their products. Oh yeah, I remember when Donald Rumsfeld was a previous board member for Monsanto.
    It is no wonder that it is brushed under the rug.
    Out of site, out of mind! Meanwhile, we have all the desease epidemics with no cures. Also not surprising since these same BioAg companies are also involved in the drug industry. They’re not looking for a cure. I believe they have created much of the disease and have also created the treatments to babysit those diseases, without looking for a cure. For anyone with even a tiny bit of common sense and an understanding of human nature, and who is not a participant in the daily rat race, it is as simple as 2+2=4.
    So let’s do the proper research once more to prove to the paid or jealous naysayers what the facts are pertaining to GMO Corn, followed by studies on all other GMO products. When, I repeat when it is proven to be a health hazard, then you need not worry about the events to follow–the public will take care of the details, trust me!

    • Sorry, Derrick, but you obviously have not actually read the relevant papers: Seralini was not a simple “repeat”. Once you read them, if you still stand by your argument, then please come back to discuss the details.

      • Mlema

        Yes, it wasn’t a repeat. Seralini controlled for sex differences, where Monsanto didn’t. He also used an isogenic feed. Monsanto didn’t. He also didn’t dismiss any data – Monsanto? Not a good track record.

    • tia

      I agree if
      it’s the humans that are eating the corn then why are they studying rats and
      not humans? Humans and rats are different in many different ways so just
      because it is bad for rats does not mean it will be bad for human just like
      humans can eat chocolate but it can kill dogs. So we will not really know its harmful
      until we test it on humans.

  • Mlema

    Peter Olins – none of my replies to you here or on the other page are posting. If this comment posts I’ll try posting my replies as new comments

    • Mlema

      Peter Olins:
      UK samples taken in 2011 found that in white there were 7 instances of residue out of 70, while in whole wheat there were 13 out of 35. It doesn’t reflect on amount, which of course is always considered “safe”. You can look at FAO statistics for actual measurements – although the most recent data seems to be from 2005. I’m not going to spend too much time on this because I already posted one reply and it disappeared. To me this is about the trend to increase pesticide (herbicide) use – we use Roundup on lawns, in parks, schoolyards, food crops, etc etc etc. We’re engineering resistance into more and more plants (Scott’s RR Bluegrass seed didn’t even go through APHIS review) It’s ubiquitous and isn’t as safe as we’ve been led to believe – due to “non-active” ingredients. And now, with resistance appearing more and more, we’re stacking the resistant trait with resistance to more toxic pesticides. Spraying it on wheat is just another way to sell it. I’m just trying to let people know – if you’re eating whole wheat to be more healthy, then you might consider sticking with organic, because that’s the only way to be sure it doesn’t include residues. Or – if you can’t afford organic, eat white. The hull is stripped so the residues are reduced. I don’t know if this is widely done in the US, but it might be. Who knows?

      • @Mlema—“spraying on wheat” is a gross oversimplification—but a popular recent soundbite. In the U.S., glyphosate is primarily used to kill weeds PRIOR to wheat seedling emergence. In some parts of the world with wetter climates it is also sometimes sprayed pre-harvest (as are other herbicides, for that matter).

        You cannot sidestep the questions of potency and dose. Detecting something—anything—in a food is not a predictor of safety. What matters is the inherent toxicity plus the level of exposure.

        Personally, I’m much more concerned about traces of highly potent mycotoxins—we hardly hear anything about these, though, probably because there “natural”. Mycotoxins are a known risk to human health worldwide.

        • Mlema

          There are conflicting scientific opinions on how much glyphosate is safe. And safe for who? Little children? Those with kidney or liver disease? And since there’s no way to know how much is on any given food that’s been sprayed – I say avoid it if you can. It doesn’t matter if glyphosate is relatively safe, at some level to some person it won’t be. And since we’re continually increasing the amount in our food and environment – the number of those “some persons” is going to increase. Also, it kills amphibians – and not just in water but in the fields. And its use has reduced border plants which harbor beneficial insects. Also, Roundup negatively impacts mycorrhizal fungi and earthworms.

          Why is it important to you that we continue to increase the use of Roundup/Glyphosate?

        • Mlema

          Peter, I replied to your question/comment on the other spot where we were discussing the same thing. I don’t know why my responses were moving all over the discussion. Sorry.

          Basically, the questions of potency and dose are irrelevant to people who are trying to avoid pesticide residues for reasons of: compromised immune system, liver or kidney failure, small children, etc.

          Non-organic whole wheat products have more glyphosate residue than organic. White wheat products have less residue. Why is that a problem? Why do you want people to choose to eat residues or not even know they’re there? If you want to talk about toxicity and dose, then be my guest – there are probably many people who will see it your way and decide they’re healthy and don’t need to worry about such things. to each his own – but there are environmental concerns with Roundup too.

          And Roundup by itself is passe now. We have GE crops resistant to glyphosate, AND 2,4D, or dicamba. We’ve got to keep up here! ;)

        • Mlema

          Peter, I have replied to this comment but my replies don’t seem to post where I make them. You may find my replies (in duplicate or triplicate) elsewhere. This one was posted in reply to your comment that began “@Mlema- “spraying on wheat”..
          we’ll see where it ends up

  • Mlema

    Are my comments being removed from this page?

  • Wackes Seppi
    • Relying on my rusty French plus Google Translate, it appears that the French Food Safety Agency has concluded that the republished paper does not change the original conclusion that NO significant effects were seen after consumption of GM feed or Roundup.

      There was also discussion of the apparent selective disclosure of data. (Please correct me if I missed something).

  • DeSwiss

    Any scientist who criticizes Séralini and ignores the total lack of any proof of MONSANTO’s claims is a charlatan of the first water and should turn in his/her microscope immediately and without delay.

    Genetic literacy my Aunt Minnie……

  • This study has been republished

  • eking

    this article needs more information on the rat lab as the first response said. we need to know from who did the lab to the very end.

    • Mr. Brace

      I agree, as well as how the research has precluded to the experimented animal.

  • kiaira

    It wasn’t peer viewed and there are other foods that contain more stuff that are unhealthy to eat , and no one has a HUGE problem with it , but i still wouldn’t want to eat the GMO glyphosate or that has been with round up

  • Mr. Brace

    Given the rats were already genetically modified, doing more modifications jeopardize each of the GMO subjects. Thus can sometimes cause influential problems with the subjects gene’s.

  • LongJohnCoppers

    I really don’t care on the matter. If it doesn’t kill you or poison why does it matter.

  • tttttttttttttttttt

    David Spiegelhalter, Winton professor of the public understanding of risk at the University of Cambridge, said:
    The article still does not appear to have had proper statistical refereeing, and the methods and reporting are obscure. The claimed effects show no dose-response, and so the conclusions rest entirely on a comparison with ten control rats of each sex. This is inadequate.
    The study needs replicating by a truly independent laboratory using appropriate sample sizes. I agree with the authors that this whole area would benefit from greater transparency of data and improved experimental and statistical methods

    -I agree with this.

  • tttttttttttttttttt

    Cami Ryan, professional affiliate with the Department of Bioresource Policy, Business and Economics at the College of Agriculture and Bioresources, University of Saskatchewan, said:
    First, and most importantly, this is the same poorly designed scientific study that has been widely discredited by health and food safety agencies all over the world when it was published in 2012 (and subsequently retracted in 2013) by Food and Chemical Toxicology. Sample sizes and controls are still a problem (there are well-articulated OECD guidelines on this) and there are several holes in terms of interpretation of data.
    If Séralini’s goal here was the pursuit of good, quality science, he would have accepted the original retraction, paid mind to the broader criticisms that he received from subject-matter scientific experts and organizations and executed a new study (using an appropriate methodology) before attempting to publish again. Quality science is published in quality journals. If Séralini was really onto something here, it most certainly would have been taken up by more reputable academic journals such as Nature or Science.

    – I agree. This study isn’t very good

  • darrin

    If the data was from 2012 why are you review old papers make new information and evidence.

  • the real darrin

    Marcel Kuntz,
    biologist, director of research at Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique
    (CNRS, France) and professor at University of Grenoble-Alpes, said:

    The authors reach essentially the same
    conclusions that were already refuted and they don’t take into account the
    fundamental criticisms addressed to them.

    Looking specifically at the tumors:
    The breed of rats used is subject to spontaneous tumor development. To
    identify a statistically reliable increase in tumors in a group of rats
    requires a large number of individuals. This re-publication is still deficient
    on this point.

    These tumors were the most spectacular
    element of the media operation conducted by the authors. It should be noted
    that they showed photographs of three rats: a rat that used the GMO NK603,
    another that drank Roundup and a third absorbed both. Unlike the most basic
    scientific approach, no control rats (which didn’t eat GMO or drink herbicide)
    were shown. These control rats are still not shown in the re-publication.

    I completely agree with this man’s statement. The first fact that the type of rats used in the experiment are more subject to tumor development kind of jeopardizes the whole idea that these GM corns create tumor development, as they could just naturally develop them. Marcel’s second point about how there were no controlled rats shown in the experiment is what really nailed this down for me. How could I know that these rats don’t just naturally develop tumors no matter what they consume?

  • Abolish Holders OftheLight

    monsanto doesnt have any study showing their products to be safe that can hold up to this level of scrutiny guaranteed just think about that for a second.

  • Howard Allen

    If you have any doubts that GM crops and foods pose serious risks to peoples health and wildlife and the environment, and have been taken in by the pro-lobby propaganda, then please read Altered Genes, Twisted Truth by Steven Druker, which has a forward by the world renowned scientist Jane Goodall, who describes it as “without doubt one of the most important books of the last 50 years”.

    • JoeFarmer


      Druker’s self-published screed is a rehash of the garbage he used to lose in court.

      Think about it, Howard. If Druker really had anything of any substance or importance, why is he hawking a self-published book instead of filing suit?

      Yeah, it’s because he can make money off gullible rubes like you.

    • Ah, yes. World-renowned scientist Steven Drucker.

  • marie72

    There is a Russian 25 million dollar 3 year study underway.I think this should put this issue to rest.

    • The issue has been put to rest. The “study” you refer to is 100% funded by anti-GMO activists and being carried out by well known anti-GMO scientists. It will “prove” nothing except providing another case study in junk science and media manipulation. There have been more than 1000 totally independent GMO safety studies, about 40 of them long term that has shown no effects; then there is the retracted Seralini study republished without peer review in a predatory pay for play journal. That about summarizes the consensus science.

      • marie72

        It is a study done in Europe making there are safeguards in place that it will be fair scientific.It is still on going the results have not been posted.I have no idea what the results will be but i think this will be the first study that is not paid for by one side or the other.It is called Factor GMO. It is not a anti-GMO study.

        • Specifically, who is doing the “study” and what is the experimental design?

      • marie72

        It is called Factor GMO and is not from one side or the other.It will be 2 more years before the study test results are known.The world wants a fair unbiased study.

        • agscienceliterate

          Marie, just 10 minutes’ review of this site showed me it’s funded and organized through the National Association for Genetic Safety, a very vocal anti-GMO group in Russia. And they’re soliciting public Paypal donations to fund this. Smells pretty bogus to me, Marie. Do more checking on this before you buy into any ostensible credibility that this is in any way unbiased. And I haven’t even looked into any of the “study” protocols yet; have you?.

          • marie72

            Russia has completely banned all GMOs in there country.It would be more profitable for Russia if the science was in favor of GMOs. What do you think there agenda is?
            I read there were donations from both sides and the contributions were made public.

          • Since the botched Seralini study produced no meaningful results, a case could be made for a better designed study (not that I think this would be a worthwhile scientific effort). It’s too bad that the Factor GMO work is shrouded in secrecy, when this would be the perfect opportunity for the scientific community to help the researchers avoid the pitfalls of Seralini.

            OECD guidelines require that study design and statistical analysis be defined BEFORE the research is begun (to avoid just the kind of post hoc analysis—cherry picking—that Seralini performed), but it looks like Factor GMO is not willing to play by the rules. If this study actually gets done, I fear that it will add nothing to our scientific knowledge, but merely add to the senseless suffering and death of hundreds of rats. Where are the folks from PETA when you need them?

          • Mlema

            Peter, the EFSA has released guidelines for 2-year toxicity studies like Seralini’s. Guess which rat they recommended? Sprague-Dawley. Guess if they said you need a hypothesis to do this kind of study? No, you can do toxicity research in an exploratory fashion. Guess how many rats they recommended for this protocol? Same as what Seralini used. Guess what their opinion on use of historical data (as used by the industry) is? They caution strongly against it.

            It also recommends against comparisons to reference diets (which is what the industry uses) and says that comparisons should be against concurrent non-GMO diets (As Seralini did)

            It admitted that scientists have had to shape their own protocols for the kind of study Seralini did, since there were no guidelines in place. And yet, it turns out, as independent scientists continued to say: Seralini’s work was scrupulous – unlike the studies performed by the industry, where results can be hidden as “trade secrets” barring a court order to disclose. Upon which, concerning results are revealed along with practices that violate the rules of best practice.


            The EU will spend 3$ million to do a 2 year carcinogenicity study on NK603. They will undoubtedly use more than 10 rats per group, since it will be a cancer study, not a toxicity study. Will they ensure that control diets are free of pesticides and GMOs? (as Seralini did and the industry doesn’t?) Will they avoid comparisons to “reference groups” which are fed a variety of stuff that the industry calls “natural variation” but which in fact obscures the results?

            Time will tell.

      • Hi Jon. I was led to believe that the list of funders would only be released once the experimental phase of the project had begun. Did i miss something? Who, exactly, is funding the study?

      • Mlema

        Jon, please stop saying that there are more than 1000 totally independent GMO safety studies. Or even just stop saying there are 1000 GMO safety studies. This is not factual and you do your readers a disservice.

    • agscienceliterate

      Marie, this is the “protocol” that will be used (see the end of this post). No mention of dose. No mention of controls. No mention of type of rat used, which is critical (given the sham Seralini study that used tumor-prone rats). And no mention of who funds this study; they make a big point of stating that they won’t take $ from companies that make Roundup or glyphosate or any GE foods, but they neglect to say if they’ll take money from Big Organic (and check it out; Big Org is extremely well-funded). Why don’t they list their funders?

      This sounds like and looks like another bogus Seralini study, and unfortunately members of the public are being ripped off through solicitation of private Paypal donations.

      Gullible public being soaked to throw their dollars into more trash experiments.

      Oh, and no mention at all of animal welfare protocols in this study, either.
      Their “protocols:” (copied directly from their website)

      Laboratory animals (rats) will be fed certain GM foods and pesticides according to a protocol whose scale, rigour and range of measurements will meet and exceed current international standards for testing the toxicity of GM foods, pesticides, and other chemicals.

      The experiment uses more rigorous approaches to investigate the fundamental question of the safety of GM foods and pesticides than are currently required by regulators. It will provide sufficient data to say with confidence whether the real world levels of consumption of the GM food or exposure to its associated pesticide are safe.

      The three arms of the experiment will enable vital questions to be answered, such as:

      Is the GM food (or its associated pesticide) toxic to organ systems over the long-term?

      Does the GM food (or its associated pesticide) cause cancer?

      Does the GM food (or its associated pesticide) reduce fertility or cause birth defects?

      Is the mixture of chemicals present in ‘Roundup’ herbicide more or less toxic than its active ingredient glyphosate?

    • Marie, to put the record straight, a group of anonymous scientists would LIKE to have donations totallng $25 million, to do a secret study. “Underway” seems a bit of an exaggeration, no?

  • pissed man

    Many of these so-called experts have been unmasked as Monsanto hacks. Their universities rely on millions in funding from the industry at the minimum and many have received direct gifts and are caught in emails as greeting each other as colluding GMO shills.

    Disqualifying this study, means that the Monsanto Study, that used the same rats and LESS of them for only 90 days, was incompetent! It was designed to find absolutely nothing. So these idiots who claim that the Monsanto study was acceptable have fallen into Serralini’s trap and shown their allegiance to Biotech’s money and as purveyors of science fiction.

    Due to the GMO products being unfit for consumption and their high risk and less than zero return, they should all be banned immediately. The biotech industry is filled with the most dangerous people on the planet. they screwed up and killed people quickly with showa denko’s tryptophan, then tried to kill all terrestrial plants with klebsiella planticola. Now they kill us slowly with Roundup and their gentic screw ups in the CaMV virus that they found after release of their products for several years. Plus the 500+ pairs of genetic contamination that was found 10 years after release of RR Soy. The only consistent thing about GMO’s is their screw ups and unintended consequences, thus it should be banned. Genes are constantly changing to their environment and now Glyphosate is shown to cause thousands of genetic changes in Rat Liver and Kidney at 10x lower concentrations than allowed in the US drinking water. So they cannot tell what they are doing, they do not do any proper safety testing, they find out about screw ups 10 years after releasing it, they have screwed up and killed people and nearly killed all terrestrial plant life, and they are still in Business? It is now time to stop this madness and ban companies that produce these toxins.

  • Nick Cainski

    The only studies saying gmo’s are safe are funded by Monsanto and it’s front groups.With enough bribes and incentives you could have scientific reports saying lead cups and radioactive water filtered thru asbestos are healthy.

  • ang

    Genetic Literacy Project, I find you articles quite amusing…… Proven correct, despite all the rubbish pushed by you and others, who get all their funding direct from Monsanto et al….. sorry your lack of credibitity is showing yet again… As you are the owner of this thread even though disquis say it is not edited, I will be amazed if this passes you. Yep real free speach on good ol Genetic Literacy Project. If it does get published, I would say Disquis are finally blocking you

    • ang

      yep got blocked, had to use another email address. Anyone using disquis, dont bother………. get on a real unedited, chat comments line. This GLP is so corrupt and edited, it is pathetic.

      • gmoeater

        ?? Your post is right here. Are you angry about something? Do you have an unblocked comment you would like to make?

    • gmoeater

      GLP is a nonprofit. And many of us who read this site, and support GE foods, know that GE is not just about Monsanto. There are many seed companies that sell GE, conventional, and organic. I myself have not been edited, and I don’t think others that I know about have been edited. A few very abusive people did get blocked after numerous abusive posts.
      As for blocking, that is what Food Boob Vani Hari does. Say one scientific thing on her Facebook page, or challenge one of her ridiculous woo claims, and Wap! Banned. In fact, there is a Facebook page entirely devoted to people who have been banned by Food Boob. Thousands.
      Ang, do you have any points to make? Or just anti-biotech rants?
      Oh, and by the way, I don’t get paid by Monsanto or anyone else. Would love to think that my posts are so insightful and brilliant that they are worth corporate support, though …. Can you put in a good word for me, if you think my terrific posts merit me being paid? Thanks! (But… But …. By whom? Syngenta? Cargill? Pioneer? So many seed companies, so few shill bucks…)

  • angelina

    strong criticism from whom? Monsanto, well isnt that to be expected? The rest of the world are burning the rubbish. GMO corn, not only has very few nutrients (if it uptook nutrients, glyphosate would kill it)…. and the toxins insterted, dont even kill the nematodes and caterpillars anymore (steady diet, super bugs)…… PROBLEM? They cant take the toxins out of the nutrient deficient corn, that kills anything that eats it? Outcome, they burning this corn, before it infects and pollinates. Too late for USA, cant even sell non GMO to China! Your whole food chain is so damn infected with this stuff. No one will buy it,

    • angelina

      OOps GMO, corn, that kills everything that eats it, EXCEPT THE CATERPILLARS AND NEMATODES? Monsanto, destroyed USAs corn production, completely, in only 15 years!

  • angelina

    Genetic Literacy Project is the most absurd, obviously corrupt, paid for site on the damn internet……………………… And the person running this site, actually thinks he has credibility? OMG

  • Benson Cameron

    I wonder how these scientists condemnation of the rerelease feel like a cheap prostitution ring paid off by Monsanto

    • agscienceliterate

      The re-release pointed out nothing new. Same old garbage data. Nothing to see here. Restating erroneous information does not magically make that information credible.

  • Benson Cameron

    So how long before we can have an increased size of testing and using multiple breed’s of rats and mice hell might as well chuck some rabbit’s in there as well?

    If these results are improper then let’s try the proper testing with a result as bad as this it should be very very important to research these results no matter if they are incorrect or true! We as humans eat these engineered foods everyday and that should be the first priority.

  • Ciarrai MacGiolla Comghail.

    Some things of significance to note is that while a great many so-called scientists criticised Seralini’s studies and accused him of bias and politicking, 200 rats were used in this trial – not “ten in each group”. ALL showed drastic increases in cancer incidence over the control group and THAT is statistically significant. Also, there was criticism that the rats used were cancer-prone. This choice, in preference to using non-cancer prone rats, would have provided a time compression factor to reduce the study duration period by producing higher positive outcome stats in all groups, control included, but otherwise not have affected the very fact of the difference between cancer incidence between control and all other groups. Thirdly, the study far exceeded the duration of all industry-sponsored rat studies, none of which lasted more than 90 days. Given Seralini noted that significant positive outcomes didn’t begin to develop until after 90 days in cancer-prone rats, and given Monsanto’s Rockefeller styled business model with all it entails ioncluding severe restrictions on access to GMO seed by independent researchers, it is anathema that FDA, EFSA or whoever regulates food quality, should have so readily accepted those industry-sponsored studies and so freely permitted GMOs and Roundup, yet be so reluctant to pay Seralini’s studies due respect and reconsider the “GRAS” rating on GMO crops and Roundup residues in food. I hereby accuse Seralini’s critics of bias in favour of Monsanto. When given a choice of in whom to place the greater level of trust between Monsanto and Seralini, my money is TOTALLY on Seralini. Nobody should EVER trust Monsanto farther than they could toss a bull elephant.

  • Hugh Heggen

    So the rats showed no dose-response? I’m no statistician but doesn’t that mean something else is causing the cancer in these rats, wouldn’t that invalidated the study?

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